These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Update regarding Multiboxing and input automation

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#3881 - 2015-03-26 02:12:35 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:

I'm suddenly reminded that at least one CCP and one CSM member declared an interest for one client per IP, or one client per person.

One client per person?
How quickly would CCP go broke if that were introduced?


I wonder how much compensation would need to be paid out to customers who purchased accounts via the "never fly alone" promotions?

No matter what some choose to believe, multi boxers are the backbone of Eve.
1 person subbing 10 accounts puts far more into CCP coffers than 1 person with 1 account.
Eve-offline currently shows 22,831 players on TQ (server time 02.11), remove 50% for the multi boxers (generous estimate, I believe it would be far higher), you end up with around 10,000 individual players online. Not a lot really, is it?

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Rosewalker
Khumaak Flying Circus
#3882 - 2015-03-26 02:19:49 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Rosewalker wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Charadrass wrote:
the question is if ccp sees Windows as third Party or not.
i think i remember a posting about Windows not beeing third Party to the eula.

You should just give up, because at this point it's apparent to everyone here that you're grasping for straws.

If anyone's grasping for straws, it's CCP declaring that ISBoxer interacts with the client via VideoFX, broadcasting, at window management while allowing EVE-O Preview. '

Hint: They don't, unless you want to declare video capture software banned as well as the OS-level function "on mouse focus switch window". ISBoxer does not do anything that was intended to be covered in 6A2, and CCP needs to know that.


Could you please provide the link to that? I'd like to add it to my collection of links on the subject since I seemed to have missed that one.
To my knowledge, the objection in 6A2 is that those things change the way the game is played, not any deep technical reason. If you look at the recap slide at the end, they specifically mention 6A2 and push 6A3 to the side.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=389086 Here.
The objection via 6A2 (that it somehow changes the way the game is played) is nonsense and should have been laughed out of the office by Team Security. ISBoxer doesn't change the way the game is played any more than having multiple monitors, or having your windows tiled, or using virtual desktops, or even having multiple clients running. There is no basis for banning ISBoxer's tools and functions while not touching EVE-O Preview, Mumble Overlay, TS3 overlay, and Steam Overlay, as well as multiple clients at a time.
I'm suddenly reminded that at least one CCP and one CSM member declared an interest for one client per IP, or one client per person.


Are you referring to this post by CCP Foxfour?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5604653#post5604653

As far as I can tell, Eve-O Preview is just a very unsophisticated subset of ISBoxer's capabilities. I think someone over on the Dual-Boxer forums said it was like comparing an apple to an apple growing corporation with subsidiaries in the tech and financial sectors. When I downloaded and used Eve-O Preview, I definitely got that impression.

If you use ISBoxer just like you would Eve-O Preview, then you won't get banned. It's when things like putting 12 capacitor readout wheels and other things that allow you to control 12 clients from one window where you get ISBoxer changing the way the game is played. I've watched some YouTube vidoes demonstrating the advanced capabilities of ISBoxer and the guy definitely was playing a different game that I do.

I will say you are correct about the Mumble and TS3 overlays technically being client modification. That's why they were given an explicit exemption in the Third Party Policies. It's the same exemption that ISBoxer used to enjoy until CCP removed the exemption from the Third Party Policies on 25 November and began enforcing all provisions of the EULA on 1 January.

I'm not exactly thrilled with the way this whole issue surrounding ISBoxer has been handled over the years, with at least 2 stealth edits to rulings that I've documented. However, CCP has finally gotten around to making ISBoxer users follow the EULA and Rules of Conduct in a way that doesn't outright prohibit the use of the software.

The Nosy Gamer - CCP Random: "hehe, falls under the category: nice try, but no. ;)"
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3883 - 2015-03-26 04:51:36 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:
ISBoxer doesn't change the way the game is played any more than having multiple monitors, or having your windows tiled, or using virtual desktops, or even having multiple clients running.


Do you think anyone believes that lie anymore?

I've posted video evidence showing that I can achieve the same results as videoFX by just using eve in windowed mode.
ShadowandLight
Trigger Happy Capsuleers
#3884 - 2015-03-26 04:58:53 UTC
Kinete Jenius wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:
ISBoxer doesn't change the way the game is played any more than having multiple monitors, or having your windows tiled, or using virtual desktops, or even having multiple clients running.


Do you think anyone believes that lie anymore?

I've posted video evidence showing that I can achieve the same results as videoFX by just using eve in windowed mode.



well please stop, because your obviously at an advantage compared to the average player.

cheating and 3rd party programs arent allowed....

oh your using Windows, a keyboard and a mouse? Well so you know thats a 3rd party program.

Thank you for your cooperation, Citizen.

Legacy - An EVE Online Blog

Legacy of a Capsuleer Podcast

EVEServers.info - One stop API Solution for Corps/Alliances
Aru Kacbis Danvill
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#3885 - 2015-03-26 07:09:09 UTC
Setiously; either ccp communicates or we sue for sub money ?

http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2z1dn6/isboxer_essay/

https://scontent-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11037717_10202501843106735_4596834953263635890_n.jpg?oh=940016d62d1e31a87ecc7362438ee1c6&oe=557244E3

Yep..
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#3886 - 2015-03-26 09:00:39 UTC
Rosewalker wrote:
If you use ISBoxer just like you would Eve-O Preview, then you won't get banned. It's when things like putting 12 capacitor readout wheels and other things that allow you to control 12 clients from one window where you get ISBoxer changing the way the game is played. I've watched some YouTube vidoes demonstrating the advanced capabilities of ISBoxer and the guy definitely was playing a different game that I do.
This right here is a problem though. As we found out, they have no client side detection, so there's no way to know if someone is tiling their windows as long as they aren't using them "too efficiently". How is is fair to allow a guy with scouts for example to tile all of his local windows and d-scans into a single screen to protect his ratter, or tile all his ratters information panels into a single place to view them more quickly? Answer is, it's not, but it's impossible to ban.

So what's happening here is the most obvious ISBoxer users and the most efficient manual multiboxers will get banned, while people who are less efficient but still gaining a massive advantage over "normal" players get away without an issue.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
#3887 - 2015-03-26 09:02:14 UTC
They have communicated. There is a video of a presentation from fanfest, there is the first post in this thread by CCP Falcon as well as the EULA.

It's not CCP's fault you don't like what has been communicated or that some people don't understand what has been communicated.

User of 'Bumblefck's Luscious & Luminous Mustachio Wax'
Lee Sin Priest
Doomheim
#3888 - 2015-03-26 09:17:28 UTC
You seem to think it is the fault of the multiboxers when the very first post mentions input duplication

Round robin and videofx are, if used properly, exempt from that ruling
Yet people were banned anyways

What has been communicated is false and full of missing grey matter for the grey area
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3889 - 2015-03-26 09:33:24 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Rosewalker wrote:
If you use ISBoxer just like you would Eve-O Preview, then you won't get banned. It's when things like putting 12 capacitor readout wheels and other things that allow you to control 12 clients from one window where you get ISBoxer changing the way the game is played. I've watched some YouTube vidoes demonstrating the advanced capabilities of ISBoxer and the guy definitely was playing a different game that I do.
This right here is a problem though. As we found out, they have no client side detection, so there's no way to know if someone is tiling their windows as long as they aren't using them "too efficiently". How is is fair to allow a guy with scouts for example to tile all of his local windows and d-scans into a single screen to protect his ratter, or tile all his ratters information panels into a single place to view them more quickly? Answer is, it's not, but it's impossible to ban.

So what's happening here is the most obvious ISBoxer users and the most efficient manual multiboxers will get banned, while people who are less efficient but still gaining a massive advantage over "normal" players get away without an issue.

You have without a doubt given me the harshest critical appraisal ever without even mentioning my name :P

Someday I will be an efficient manual multiboxer :(
Charadrass
Angry Germans
#3890 - 2015-03-26 10:17:27 UTC
Eve has currently aprox 145k paid subs.
And yes, they have to ban eve-overlay too if they are going to enforce videofx user bans.

for me now. i am testing the keyboard layout. and soon i will switch over completely.

then i would like to see the ban for using windows on my character screen :)
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#3891 - 2015-03-26 12:37:18 UTC
This argument is still going?

Replicating a single input to multiple clients was stupid.

Get over it.

Not today spaghetti.
Charadrass
Angry Germans
#3892 - 2015-03-26 13:04:28 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
This argument is still going?

Replicating a single input to multiple clients was stupid.

Get over it.


do you even read my posting?

I press 1 key
and this key
is sending 1 command
to 1 box

where is that broadcasting or multiplexing
or input to multiple clients?

tell me.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#3893 - 2015-03-26 13:49:55 UTC
Charadrass wrote:
Sexy Cakes wrote:
This argument is still going?

Replicating a single input to multiple clients was stupid.

Get over it.


do you even read my posting?

I press 1 key
and this key
is sending 1 command
to 1 box

where is that broadcasting or multiplexing
or input to multiple clients?

tell me.


I've had the displeasure of running across you ingame via the incursion community back in the day.

I'm not going to read your posts or join into the argument that this thread has devolved into.

I'm simply trying to bring you all back on the topic which is input automation.

Not today spaghetti.
Charadrass
Angry Germans
#3894 - 2015-03-26 14:04:31 UTC
you should buy a goggles.

as long as there are pilots getting banned using allowed / non violating methods to multibox we have to discuss that here,

that is not offtopic cause ccp closed other threads we started and pointed us back into this thread. so either you join the discussion with constructive text or leave it please.
Jason Xado
Doomheim
#3895 - 2015-03-26 14:42:51 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:


I'm simply trying to bring you all back on the topic which is input automation.


It is not only about input automation, as has been shown in the security talk at Fanfest. They now consider more than input automation to be cheating. They also now consider using VideoFX features of ISBoxer to also be cheating.

Basically if you are using more than a couple of accounts, CCP reserves the right to Ban you for whatever reason they deem appropriate.

It is what it is, and I think the war is lost and we all just need to be happy with our couple of accounts and call it a day.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#3896 - 2015-03-26 14:51:20 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
This argument is still going?

Replicating a single input to multiple clients was stupid.

Get over it.



its been almost 2k post since ccp posted. They leave this open to reduce new threads being created.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#3897 - 2015-03-26 16:52:54 UTC
Rosewalker wrote:
Are you referring to this post by CCP Foxfour?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5604653#post5604653

As far as I can tell, Eve-O Preview is just a very unsophisticated subset of ISBoxer's capabilities. I think someone over on the Dual-Boxer forums said it was like comparing an apple to an apple growing corporation with subsidiaries in the tech and financial sectors. When I downloaded and used Eve-O Preview, I definitely got that impression.

If you use ISBoxer just like you would Eve-O Preview, then you won't get banned. It's when things like putting 12 capacitor readout wheels and other things that allow you to control 12 clients from one window where you get ISBoxer changing the way the game is played. I've watched some YouTube vidoes demonstrating the advanced capabilities of ISBoxer and the guy definitely was playing a different game that I do.
I will say you are correct about the Mumble and TS3 overlays technically being client modification. That's why they were given an explicit exemption in the Third Party Policies. It's the same exemption that ISBoxer used to enjoy until CCP removed the exemption from the Third Party Policies on 25 November and began enforcing all provisions of the EULA on 1 January.
I'm not exactly thrilled with the way this whole issue surrounding ISBoxer has been handled over the years, with at least 2 stealth edits to rulings that I've documented. However, CCP has finally gotten around to making ISBoxer users follow the EULA and Rules of Conduct in a way that doesn't outright prohibit the use of the software.

By your logic, anyone playing in a windowed mode, multiple monitors, or tiling multiple windows should be banned. VideoFX does nothing but dictate pieces of each window to DWM (much the same way that FRAPS or Twitch does) and display them somewhere else using Aero. Note that Shadowplay by NVidia may be different.
There is no reason why "putting 12 capacitor readout wheels" would or should be disallowed. Some people prefer their capacitor readout at the top of the screen; shall we ban them as well? ISBoxer is emergent gameplay at it's finest. As defined by WIkipedia: "Emergent gameplay refers to complex situations in video games, board games, or table top role-playing games that emerge from the interaction of relatively simple game mechanics." (Source in French: Here). We contend that ISBoxer is nothing more than emergent gameplay that came about as a direct result of CCP's encouragement (some may argue necessity) of multiple accounts and characters. CCP previously ruled on this with that person who had duct-taped multiple mice together and used dowels with key-pads. He was banned for botting but got it lifted after demonstrating that he was sitting behind the keyboard implementing the actions himself, not some program that kept running like clockwork while he was at the Five-and-Dime. Same thing with ISBoxer.

I mentioned the previous case because it set something known as a "precedent". CCP communicated with the playerbase that as long as you aren't AFK while the program continues to function and act, it's fine. CCP is currently breaking a clearly set and defined precedent. This is not something to be taken lightly. CCP is upset that we are creating emergent gameplay using legitimate mechanics. Margin trading scams are considered emergent gameplay, as the mechanics behind the Margin Trading skill was not meant to be used to scam players when it was first devised and implemented. The sandbox of EVE is being slowly constricted bit by bit. I hate to participate in a slippery slope fallacy, but first ISBoxers, next scammers and gankers.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#3898 - 2015-03-26 18:05:33 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
I've had the displeasure of running across you ingame via the incursion community back in the day.
I'm not going to read your posts or join into the argument that this thread has devolved into.
I'm simply trying to bring you all back on the topic which is input automation.


Input automation is an interesting topic. First let's look at the definition of automation, per Merriam-Webster:

automation noun
Definition of AUTOMATION
1 the technique of making an apparatus, a process, or a system operate automatically
2 the state of being operated automatically
3 automatically controlled operation of an apparatus, process, or system by mechanical or electronic devices that take the place of human labor.

Now, any reasonable person (as defined by law) would take one look at this and tell you that 1) ISBoxer doesn't allow one to automate gameplay and 2) since ISBoxer doesn't allow you to automate gameplay there should be no ban regarding it.
Charadrass
Angry Germans
#3899 - 2015-03-26 20:19:33 UTC
as i told everyone here.
i am waiting for a Pilot getting banned for using Windows :)
Sir Constantin
#3900 - 2015-03-26 22:14:41 UTC
TLDR: People want VFX to be allowed so they can import pieces of Eve into their 3'rd party software on pc or tablets so they can go fullretard there with rollovers and all the things.

How about HTFU and play the game as we 99% of players do.