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Do Zero-Tolerance for Botting Alliances Exist?
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Podcorn
Doomheim
#81 - 2011-12-24 00:20:13 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
There is no way to truly know which alliances, nullsec or otherwise, actually police and kick members for botting. What we do know are which alliances bot and allow their members to do so...

*coughttestgoonswarmcough*

Sorry. I don't want to point them out. I hate finger pointing. Lol

You don't understand how this works. Goonswarm does not condone botting we just don't believe in our members doing CCP's job for them.


"Don't report the bots guys, make CCP do it."

Roll
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2011-12-24 00:23:36 UTC
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
There is no way to truly know which alliances, nullsec or otherwise, actually police and kick members for botting. What we do know are which alliances bot and allow their members to do so...

*coughttestgoonswarmcough*

Sorry. I don't want to point them out. I hate finger pointing. Lol


Let me reiterate from last page:

Lord Zim wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Topaz Sky wrote:
CCP devs are apparently in the goons and goons have an open goon-botting tolerance policy, so clearly not.

Nice tinfoil hat. Goonswarm was one of the unnamed alliances I mentioned, which I believe (according to my sources) has a "don't report bots" policy. It's not "bots are okay" but it's effectively that anyway. The reason that is put in place is because of idiots who would go through friendly systems reporting every single ratter for botting, which causes unnecessary drama and headaches for everyone. Even worse if those friendly systems are in an ally's space, not the own alliance's space.

I mean, it's understandable, but sort of sad. And that doesn't answer my question either way.

Actually, the policy is don't shoot bots (because you don't actually know it is a bot, you can only assume). We don't give a flying **** if someone reports a bot.

Actually, I believe there has been cases of some testie reporting every goon (or everyone non-test) flying through fountain, though, and I'm not sure if that was something he told the guys he reported about it, or if he just did it silently, but there were some drama there.

Edit: Ah.
Xolve wrote:
And the 'No Bot Reporting' rule originated in TEST when a bunch of mouthbreathers were mad about the sanctum nerf and couldn't find an empty one to harvest interstellar ***-gold from. So they started reporting people who were honestly just ratting to get them a temp ban until an investigation was completed.

So, hi.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2011-12-24 00:30:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
"Don't report bots" policies only do one thing, encourage botting. The reasons given for such policies as to prevent people from rage-reporting innocent people just doesn't hold water. Firstly, how is the alliance ever going to know who reported who unless CCP is sending that information back to the alliance. Secondly, a "Don't falsely report people as botters" policy doesn't directly encourage botting and is still just as enforceable as the policies as stated.

The fact that alliances have "Don't report bots" policies is indicative of their encouragement of such activities. Any other reason for such policies assumes the ability to enforce it. How does one enforce it when supposedly there is no way for the alliance to know who reported a potential botter??? Or do the close ties these alliances have with CCP allow such information to make its way back to the alliance???

If information pertaining to who reported potential botters is making it back to alliance from CCP then why is this even possible unless it's to protect an alliance's interests in such activities. Sorry, but tin foil hat or no, no matter how I look at it the implications are disturbing.

Don't ban me, bro!
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2011-12-24 00:38:13 UTC
Podcorn wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
There is no way to truly know which alliances, nullsec or otherwise, actually police and kick members for botting. What we do know are which alliances bot and allow their members to do so...

*coughttestgoonswarmcough*

Sorry. I don't want to point them out. I hate finger pointing. Lol

You don't understand how this works. Goonswarm does not condone botting we just don't believe in our members doing CCP's job for them.


"Don't report the bots guys, make CCP do it."

Roll

So, you report every J-walker, speeder, double parking, litterer, and that guy who blew through the stop sign, to the authorities? What is your phone bill like, and how do you find time for EVE and posting?

Not our job, but we can drop a dime if we want to. :effort:

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Podcorn
Doomheim
#85 - 2011-12-24 00:46:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Podcorn
Falin Whalen wrote:


So, you report every J-walker, speeder, double parking, litterer, and that guy who blew through the stop sign, to the authorities? What is your phone bill like, and how do you find time for EVE and posting?

Not our job, but we can drop a dime if we want to. :effort:


No I don't care about J-walking, who does? Comparing that to botting suggests you view it as a very petty infraction. I disagree with the goons in that I think botting is horrible and it destroys the game. I report botters because I like EVE, I know that the goons say that they want to destroy EVE and maybe that's why they tolerate them / turn a blind eye to their 'petty little transgressions' against it. But that's why I view goons as botters, because even if one isn't, harboring them is just as bad.
yumike
Doomheim
#86 - 2011-12-24 00:53:06 UTC
I found a bot in my alliance (not this char if you try to look at history, IDLE EMPIRE) and ended up suicide ganking him . (highsec, mining bot)

The funny thing is, we were very strict about area of operation & comms before even logging in (Don't wanna scare the wartargets away from staging system by having too many people login) so when we came across a blue a few jumps from staging. It was an automatic red flag. He never had a ship loss from a war target so we assumed it didn't safe cause we were blue.
Suicide ganked & kicked when his ceo logged in.. (We are/were small though, sub 100 people. I doubt larger alliances could afford that)
Doc Severide
Doomheim
#87 - 2011-12-24 00:53:51 UTC
Pawnee wrote:
One day the fair players will realise, the cheaters have such an advantage, they can never take on and will ahve never a chance to strike back and have any competition on a simular level.

Agreed... This is the first MMO I ever played and had no idea of how things really work. I have too much time invested to quit but if I knew then what I know now I never would have started.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#88 - 2011-12-24 01:25:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher Jones
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
thats terribad.

Do you know any other unfunny memes?


Just "pubbie". I tend to save clever articulations for those who can use them.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#89 - 2011-12-24 02:39:10 UTC
Podcorn wrote:


"Don't report the bots guys, make CCP do it."

Roll

It's CCP's rule and it's their job to enforce it. This is not a difficult concept.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#90 - 2011-12-24 02:40:16 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
I tend to save clever articulations to those who can use them.

Along with coherent grammar?

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#91 - 2011-12-24 02:42:50 UTC
Podcorn wrote:
But that's why I view goons as botters, because even if one isn't, harboring them is just as bad.

Do you have *any* evidence at all that we are "harboring botters"? Don't bother answering that because I know you don't.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#92 - 2011-12-24 02:56:04 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
I tend to save clever articulations to those who can use them.

Along with coherent grammar?


If a sentence is incoherent to you because of one misplaced preposition then your reading comprehension is rather low. Not being able to keep up with someone you consider to be a troll would be a fate worse than death to most of us. I applaud your bravery, and fallacious use of logic.

This thread has been locked due to Lady Harlot wtfbbqpwning absolutely all posters with torrents of pure genius.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#93 - 2011-12-24 03:35:12 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
This thread has been locked due to Lady Harlot wtfbbqpwning absolutely all posters with torrents of pure genius.

Wouldn't be the first time. Won't be the last.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Podcorn
Doomheim
#94 - 2011-12-24 03:43:30 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:

we are "harboring botters"


No one needs direct evidence, it's the goon's policy to not report bots, to look the other way. You hide goon bots among your other carebears then you say "It's CCP's job to try and find them"

That is harboring bots.

I understand that goons want to destroy the game, (do they not?) And yes, that's a good way to do that. Congradulations Shocked. But what I don't understand is why the CCP employees that are in the goons (... are they not?...) Don't say anything about this.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#95 - 2011-12-24 04:58:30 UTC
Podcorn wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:

we are "harboring botters"


No one needs direct evidence, it's the goon's policy to not report bots, to look the other way. You hide goon bots among your other carebears then you say "It's CCP's job to try and find them"

That is harboring bots.

I understand that goons want to destroy the game, (do they not?) And yes, that's a good way to do that. Congradulations Shocked. But what I don't understand is why the CCP employees that are in the goons (... are they not?...) Don't say anything about this.


I don't believe that people in Goonswarm seriously go all "Hey guys, I'll be back later. If you see my Tengu flying around, just ignore it." That is just asking for trouble. My guess is that most people can't even identify a bot in Goonswarm, even though they live around those bots every day. That is only exacerbated by the really large number of members.

Mr Kidd wrote:
"Don't report bots" policies only do one thing, encourage botting. The reasons given for such policies as to prevent people from rage-reporting innocent people just doesn't hold water. Firstly, how is the alliance ever going to know who reported who unless CCP is sending that information back to the alliance. Secondly, a "Don't falsely report people as botters" policy doesn't directly encourage botting and is still just as enforceable as the policies as stated.


The reason this becomes an issue is because the reporter/whistleblower/****** goes and does something stupid, like saying "You were just reported for botting, congratulations" in local, or goes into corp chat (or other favorite chat channel) and starts bragging.

The problem here is that the reporter always has plausible deniability. "I really thought he was a bot!" is a really end-all argument, which can only be overriden by overwhelming evidence that the reporter is actually just abusing bot-reporting. With a massive alliance full of like Goonswarm, that becomes unmanageable.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#96 - 2011-12-24 04:58:48 UTC
Lady Harlot wrote:
It's CCP's rule and it's their job to enforce it. This is not a difficult concept.


Suppose you are shopping at a department store at your favorite mall with some friends. The mall has been having a shoplifting problem recently, and has big posters everywhere saying "Shoplifting harms all of us -- please inform a security officer if you see anything suspicious." You then notice that one of your friends just surreptitiously slipped an item into his pocket. The officers did not notice.

Do you just keep quiet to "avoid drama"? It is indeed the officers' jobs to catch this shoplifting, but would you allow it to happen?

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2011-12-24 05:50:17 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Lady Harlot wrote:
It's CCP's rule and it's their job to enforce it. This is not a difficult concept.


Suppose you are shopping at a department store at your favorite mall with some friends. The mall has been having a shoplifting problem recently, and has big posters everywhere saying "Shoplifting harms all of us -- please inform a security officer if you see anything suspicious." You then notice that one of your friends just surreptitiously slipped an item into his pocket. The officers did not notice.

Do you just keep quiet to "avoid drama"? It is indeed the officers' jobs to catch this shoplifting, but would you allow it to happen?

I like shoplifters. Everybody paying for things makes for long lines and I hate waiting in line.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#98 - 2011-12-24 05:51:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Ladie Harlot
Podcorn wrote:
That is harboring bots.

It's seriously not but I doubt you have the capacity to understand why.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Theodoric Darkwind
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2011-12-24 06:10:49 UTC
Xolve wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
If PL does this, they may have regained the respect I lost for them when they hotdropped my Slicer with an Aeon and a Nyx.



How in the great blue **** did your slicer get tackled by 2 supers?



Probably tackled by a Cyno Arazu or Rapier.
Endeavour Starfleet
#100 - 2011-12-24 06:29:39 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
I had an interesting discussion with a friend of mine yesterday about the prevalence of botting and why it is not combated more actively. I am now aware that some alliances have "don't report bots" policies for a multitude of reasons, including avoiding drama (due to trigger-happy white knight types who report everything in sight, or due to actual abuse), padding alliance wallet, and "because it's not our fault CCP can't enforce its EULA".

This has left me rather disappointed, but I'm curious: how widespread is this practice? With all the bot hate everywhere, I would think there exist alliances with "zero tolerance" bot policies -- towards their own members, allies, and enemies. Do they exist or am I just living in cuckoo-land?

(No I am not looking for recruitment; I am simply asking a question)


Doing the right thing trumps BS "Do not report" policies. Botting hurts everyone with worse prices and reducing the human factor in the sandbox.

Reporting everything in sight has nothing to do with the alliance. CCP has stated that abuse of the report bot feature will be dealt with which I suspect is ban time.


Don't be afraid of reporting bots in your alliance. They have an unfair advantage over you and that is BS to start with.