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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1641 - 2015-03-24 03:54:29 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
Because the whole idea of a sandbox is to give the players the tools to engineer themselves out of a problem, not introduce a cruise missile style fix that obliterates the problem and causes significant collateral damage to other areas

There's no issues with cloaking and people who have issues with cloaks aren't concerned about the cloak its about what happens after the cloak drops and a bunch of undesirable appear instantly to make a fight totally one sided.

the problem is the relative risk that the gankers have to deal with when carrying out these ganks, and that risk is practically zero.


Bullcrap. It is only incredibly narrow-minded fools that think hot dropping has zero risk. I've personally been on counter-drop forces and QRFs that have trashed entire blops fleets.

That does not mean that I think the current cloaking/cyno/local issues in nul/losec are good. I'm only disagreeing with your assertion that there is no risk to the people dropping in on the lonely carebear. There are a multitude of tactics the bear can use to make himself a very undesirable target, or to bait the blops fleet into an untimely and embarrassing loss.

As for the stuff going on in the observatory thread, I'm looking forward to some form of afk cloaky counter-measures that an active player can easily avoid and an afk player cannot.


Hah, reminds me of the time some guys dropping on a carrier got nearly wiped out by the carriers geckos while the player was literally afk for a few minutes.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
RogueHunteer
Doomheim
#1642 - 2015-03-24 06:51:22 UTC
Dedicated to intelligence gathering.

Service module possibilities: Being able to increase, decrease or block Star Map filters in the solar systems they’re deployed, act as solar system wide D-scan blockers, disrupt ship intelligence in the solar system, take over player tracking capabilities from NPC agents or be able to affect or pinpoint cloak users. We are considering basing their effectiveness through a network coverage (like cell phones) so that a single one may not be that useful, but maintaining a bunch of them in space could give a significant advantage.




WE ARE SAVED!

agents or be able to affect or pinpoint cloak users
agents or be able to affect or pinpoint cloak users
agents or be able to affect or pinpoint cloak users
agents or be able to affect or pinpoint cloak users
agents or be able to affect or pinpoint cloak users
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#1643 - 2015-03-24 13:36:56 UTC  |  Edited by: GeeShizzle MacCloud
RogueHunteer wrote:
Dedicated to intelligence gathering.

Service module possibilities: Being able to increase, decrease or block Star Map filters in the solar systems they’re deployed, act as solar system wide D-scan blockers, disrupt ship intelligence in the solar system, take over player tracking capabilities from NPC agents or be able to affect or pinpoint cloak users. We are considering basing their effectiveness through a network coverage (like cell phones) so that a single one may not be that useful, but maintaining a bunch of them in space could give a significant advantage.




WE ARE SAVED!

agents or be able to affect or pinpoint cloak users
agents or be able to affect or pinpoint cloak users
agents or be able to affect or pinpoint cloak users
agents or be able to affect or pinpoint cloak users
agents or be able to affect or pinpoint cloak users



http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/67008/1/WIP.png

ill just leave this here...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1644 - 2015-03-24 16:06:35 UTC
RogueHunteer wrote:
Dedicated to intelligence gathering.

Service module possibilities: Being able to increase, decrease or block Star Map filters in the solar systems they’re deployed, act as solar system wide D-scan blockers, disrupt ship intelligence in the solar system, take over player tracking capabilities from NPC agents or be able to affect or pinpoint cloak users. We are considering basing their effectiveness through a network coverage (like cell phones) so that a single one may not be that useful, but maintaining a bunch of them in space could give a significant advantage.




WE ARE SAVED!

agents or be able to affect or pinpoint cloak users
agents or be able to affect or pinpoint cloak users
agents or be able to affect or pinpoint cloak users
agents or be able to affect or pinpoint cloak users
agents or be able to affect or pinpoint cloak users

You read that entire paragraph, and only really absorbed that one line?

With effectiveness not specified on any aspect, that paragraph also said:
disrupt ship intelligence in the solar system (that hostile may have just blocked local, or removed themselves from being seen in it)
act as solar system wide D-scan blockers (That hostile doesn't need the recon for immunity to d-scan now)

It should be hoped that this offers opportunities to both sides, and doesn't treat anybody like an unintended presence.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Cade Windstalker
#1645 - 2015-03-24 22:31:01 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
You read that entire paragraph, and only really absorbed that one line?

With effectiveness not specified on any aspect, that paragraph also said:
disrupt ship intelligence in the solar system (that hostile may have just blocked local, or removed themselves from being seen in it)
act as solar system wide D-scan blockers (That hostile doesn't need the recon for immunity to d-scan now)

It should be hoped that this offers opportunities to both sides, and doesn't treat anybody like an unintended presence.


It wouldn't make much sense for an upgrade to hobble your own intel capabilities along with those of enemies or intruders. I would assume such a system would either impact everyone not in the holding Alliance or run by diplo status, with everyone with negative or neutral standing being affected, at least for in-system stuff like D-Scan. Something like a Local block or blocking the star-map intel might be easier to code as affecting everyone but I would assume that this would also provide some replacement.

If the option is continue as things were before or shoot everyone in the foot people just won't use those sorts of upgrades.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1646 - 2015-03-24 22:36:58 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
You read that entire paragraph, and only really absorbed that one line?

With effectiveness not specified on any aspect, that paragraph also said:
disrupt ship intelligence in the solar system (that hostile may have just blocked local, or removed themselves from being seen in it)
act as solar system wide D-scan blockers (That hostile doesn't need the recon for immunity to d-scan now)

It should be hoped that this offers opportunities to both sides, and doesn't treat anybody like an unintended presence.


It wouldn't make much sense for an upgrade to hobble your own intel capabilities along with those of enemies or intruders. I would assume such a system would either impact everyone not in the holding Alliance or run by diplo status, with everyone with negative or neutral standing being affected, at least for in-system stuff like D-Scan. Something like a Local block or blocking the star-map intel might be easier to code as affecting everyone but I would assume that this would also provide some replacement.

If the option is continue as things were before or shoot everyone in the foot people just won't use those sorts of upgrades.

Upgrade is a relative term.

It considers something as context in a comparison.

If you are looking at just the perspective of only one side, either cloaking or sov holding, I would certainly not want to see an upgrade.

If you are considering both sides, and an interest in a non prejudicial player driven resolution potential, then heck yeah, a lot of players would love to see an upgrade, myself included.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Marranar Amatin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1647 - 2015-03-24 23:29:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Marranar Amatin
If the hostile wants to block local (or however that intel blocking is supposed to work), then he probably can simply install his own structure. Ofc he has to defend it then and cant just turn the invulnerability module on...

A structure that blocks the intel of the alliance that installs it does not make much sense.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1648 - 2015-03-25 14:05:26 UTC
Marranar Amatin wrote:
If the hostile wants to block local (or however that intel blocking is supposed to work), then he probably can simply install his own structure. Ofc he has to defend it then and cant just turn the invulnerability module on...

A structure that blocks the intel of the alliance that installs it does not make much sense.

Observatories are an interesting naming choice, as observatories specifically deal with things very far from themselves.

Perhaps the intel dampening / blocking effect can be achieved from a nearby system, should it be determined that a negative effect requires an installation to exist for support.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Marranar Amatin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1649 - 2015-03-25 14:23:30 UTC
yes that would be a possibility. As long as these structures can not be made invulnerable thats fine.
Thegasp Cupcakes
CareBears Gone Dark
#1650 - 2015-03-26 03:22:48 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
Cloaks should cycle like a repper or a weapon with a 5-minute cycle.

You can still use cloaking as an intel tool. Getting rid of the unlimited cloak duration does not impede intel. Intel can't be collected while a person is AFK anyway. All arguments that cloaky local intel depends on being able to AFK cloak are false.

AFK cloaking is primarily an interdiction tool. Want to make someone dock up? Put a cloaky neut in system.

Your ability to hot drop should be related to the number of actively playing scouts you have. Not one dude with 50 accounts checking things out here and there.

I can't believe people complain about AFK mining and tolerate AFK cloaking.

AFK cloaking needs to go away. It actually destroys content by keeping a persistent threat of a threat that isn't really a threat. So people stay docked up to avoid fleets that won't come because the scout is AFK. Reducing AFK cloakers will embolden miners and ratters and make them vulnerable to real scouts who are at the keyboard playing Eve.

AFK cloaking reduces fights and destroys content. It results in station spinning. Get rid of it. Cloaks should be active modules with 5-minute cycles.


So you're saying if people didn't know the AFK cloaker was there, they'd play. So making it delayed mode or even hide those who don't jump/enter system go off local, would fix the issue. This way pilots wouldn't know the threat of a threat that isn't a threat' isn't there at all? But when it actually is a threat, there could be a target this way. Someone who spends all day cloaked up actively watching should be rewarded with the miners you bring out or the fleet you're deciding to bridge because it is 'safe'.

In sense, I have to agree with most that say local should be fixed, humans are paranoid beings. Let people have the reassurance that nothing is there, or theres 100 people in your system waiting for your 200m battleship to run anoms... Instead of them being paranoid because someone is JUST IN their system. Probably not even with the intent of killing them because they know what kind of vain it is. Just dock/pos up when someone comes in, and go back to mining when they leave(with your cargo expanded orca)
stalwart general
Doomheim
#1651 - 2015-03-26 06:39:48 UTC
don't know if these were mentioned I may have missed it.

1) Make cloaks overheat whenever activated... just take lower amount of damage than normal... They claim they need to be able to gather intel 15mins is enough time for you to gather intel... ,make it take 15-20mins depending on skills likely whatever is in there will either change because you are there or stay the same whether you are there or not in that 15mins. If you're logging alts in 12 different systems in your WT's/red's space that's stalking/harassment
or.......

2) Environmental timer... cynos can only be lit in a constellation once every 30mins. This provides more risk for those fleets bridging fleets in to hotdrop 1 BS
or.......

3) Covert cyno alert structure..... simply detects covert cynos and forces them on your overlay and OV as a warpable hit...


Please no more fatigue stuff that jump fatigue took the cake!... ..
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1652 - 2015-03-26 11:01:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Cloak Abuse:
I am in favour of fuel for cloaks. Heat is probably too draconian, although running the cloak without fuel could generate heat (the fuel is really a coolant or lubricant?)


Cyno Abuse:
I think the cyno-gank thing can be solved easily. Simply make the jumping ships appear at a random spot in system, rather than on the cyno (accuracy problems across vast space-time distances, blah blah).

This means that anyone who cyno-jumps in:

a) Is invulnerable for a while because you'd have to probe them down to attack them

b) must re-warp to the cyno beacon if that's where the target is.

This gives the defender (in all situations) a moment to react and levels the playing field, which is currently tipped decidedly in favour of the cyno-lighting attacker.

A further advantage of this approach is that jump fatigue can be eliminated. For fleets performing mutliple jumps, there will need to be some co-ordination along the way, involving at least one intra-system warp per cyno jump. This nicely solves the problem of cyno fleets being able to cross the entire map in moments, which was the purpose of introducing jump fatigue.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Marranar Amatin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1653 - 2015-03-26 12:37:59 UTC
I think thats a bad idea, because it has a heavy influence on the general cyno mechanic while hardly adressing the camper problem.

It only means a few additionel second until the bomber arrive, but would brake a lot of legitimate cyno uses.

A big problem I see with these cyno ganks is that there is absolutly nothing that can be done to counter them. They pick the fight, you can only react. If they dont want to engange then they are 100% invulnerable because everyone is either cloaked or in a npc station.
I dont like that. If you position yourself so that you can immediatly attack, you should also open yourself to some kind of attack.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1654 - 2015-03-26 13:10:55 UTC
Thegasp Cupcakes wrote:
... Just dock/pos up when someone comes in, and go back to mining when they leave(with your cargo expanded orca)

You do know, that the cargo expanded Orca has a dynamic sound system that is unparalleled among any other capital ship?

Whether it is an ancient Earth recording of Wagner, Amarrian monks chanting, or the latest Gallente pop album... that sound system can make almost anything sound amazingly good.

Plus, there is room to throw the most off-the-hook parties, also enhanced due to the sound system keeping the dance floor moving.

Rock on!

(Seriously though, these ships should not be used without some form of viable defense to protect them)

In other news, I think we should be wanting player based resolution to determine whether a hostile gets a kill mail, or is featured on one instead.

Arranging the circumstances so that the defenders are more likely to succeed by default, seems a strange way to get players to show up on the other team.

Having them not show up, or simply fall back to blob only tactics, I feel diminishes game play more than it is now.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1655 - 2015-03-26 14:46:35 UTC
Marranar Amatin wrote:
I think thats a bad idea, because it has a heavy influence on the general cyno mechanic while hardly adressing the camper problem.

It only means a few additionel second until the bomber arrive, but would brake a lot of legitimate cyno uses.

A big problem I see with these cyno ganks is that there is absolutly nothing that can be done to counter them. They pick the fight, you can only react. If they dont want to engange then they are 100% invulnerable because everyone is either cloaked or in a npc station.
I dont like that. If you position yourself so that you can immediatly attack, you should also open yourself to some kind of attack.


Doesn't the cloak fuel address the camper problem directly?

Doesn't forcing the cyno-team to regroup in system address the 'no risk cyno bank' problem?

Didn't CCP want a solution to the instant multi-lightyear travel problem?

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Marranar Amatin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1656 - 2015-03-26 15:39:37 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Doesn't the cloak fuel address the camper problem directly?


This would strongly limit the cloak in other areas.
For example cloaking in a safe spot would not be safe anymore, the hostile would only have to wait until your fuel runs out.
You could not really use it for scouting over longer periods of time since you have to refueling.

This kind of turns the problem around and solves it only from the perspective of the ratter that wants safety.
Right now the problem is, not matter how good the defender is, no matter how little the attacker does: he is completly invulnerable.
With the fuel, its the other way, the attacker has no way to stay hidden. doesnt matter what he does, eventually his fuel will run out.

I do not want to give the win to one side per default.


Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Doesn't forcing the cyno-team to regroup in system address the 'no risk cyno bank' problem?


Hardly. You can still bringt lots of bombers in the system without any risk. They just need to warp a few seconds. And again this has a strong effect on other uses of cynos.

Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Didn't CCP want a solution to the instant multi-lightyear travel problem?


They already implemented one.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1657 - 2015-03-26 15:51:52 UTC
Marranar Amatin wrote:

For example cloaking in a safe spot would not be safe anymore, the hostile would only have to wait until your fuel runs out.


That's a reasonable argument, but there has to be a compromise somewhere if AFK cloaking area denial is to go away.

Marranar Amatin wrote:
Hardly. You can still bringt lots of bombers in the system without any risk. They just need to warp a few seconds. And again this has a strong effect on other uses of cynos.


But people on grid would see the covert cyno no? It's only invisible on d-scan. They would have (some) warning.

Marranar Amatin wrote:

They already implemented one.

... which is universally hated and requires convoluted and artificial ship bonuses.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Marranar Amatin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1658 - 2015-03-26 16:00:08 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
That's a reasonable argument, but there has to be a compromise somewhere if AFK cloaking area denial is to go away.


There have been lots of suggestions already, most of which do not have this problem.



Mournful Conciousness wrote:
But people on grid would see the covert cyno no? It's only invisible on d-scan. They would have (some) warning.



still wont help much if your ship is either slow to warp, or there is a second cloaky the tackles you until the bomber arrives.
I know that this would help the defender a little, but its a bandaid fix. It does not solve the underlying problem, and it would affect other areas that are not supposed to be affected.

Mournful Conciousness wrote:
... which is universally hated and requires convoluted and artificial ship bonuses.


At least I like the solution, its a lot better then before. And I like it better then yours.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1659 - 2015-03-26 16:03:04 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Marranar Amatin wrote:

For example cloaking in a safe spot would not be safe anymore, the hostile would only have to wait until your fuel runs out.


That's a reasonable argument, but there has to be a compromise somewhere if AFK cloaking area denial is to go away.

Addressing this segment specifically.

To offset area denial, the key detail is to resolve it.
To resolve it, both parties must be willing to engage.

For the Cloaked player: They have fitted for the ability to cherry pick a fight. That means they won't engage in a fight they could have had elsewhere without the cloak, or one where they are otherwise overpowered by their opponent.

For the (likely) PvE player: They must feel a reasonable expectation that they can both earn ISK, and fight off an opponent by using equal or greater effort / fitting / planning. Like the cloaked player, if they have a reasonable expectation of being overwhelmed, they simply won't show up.

That means making hot drops less of a wildcard, and bringing confidence to the PvE players belief in their fighting ability.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1660 - 2015-03-26 16:13:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Marranar Amatin wrote:

For example cloaking in a safe spot would not be safe anymore, the hostile would only have to wait until your fuel runs out.


That's a reasonable argument, but there has to be a compromise somewhere if AFK cloaking area denial is to go away.

Addressing this segment specifically.

To offset area denial, the key detail is to resolve it.
To resolve it, both parties must be willing to engage.

For the Cloaked player: They have fitted for the ability to cherry pick a fight. That means they won't engage in a fight they could have had elsewhere without the cloak, or one where they are otherwise overpowered by their opponent.

For the (likely) PvE player: They must feel a reasonable expectation that they can both earn ISK, and fight off an opponent by using equal or greater effort / fitting / planning. Like the cloaked player, if they have a reasonable expectation of being overwhelmed, they simply won't show up.

That means making hot drops less of a wildcard, and bringing confidence to the PvE players belief in their fighting ability.


It's interesting that a scenario like this affected me for 2 days on the trot this week - in w-space. The problem exists even without the threat of a cyno, since reinforcements are only ever 1 wormhole transition away.

The problem specifically was that I wanted to solo some sleeper relic and data sites in a marauder, and one scout (which I had seen enter) effectively shut down the entire system to me.I had no way of knowing whether he had previously scanned the system or not, and behind (or ahead of) him could easily be a fleet of combat recons which I would never see before they landed.

It's frustrating when it happens, but at least us w-space folk can go off and do something else - it's a kind of 'world gives you lemons, so make lemonade' lifestyle. I would imagine for nullbears it's pretty disempowering.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".