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[New structures] Mooring and docking features

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sytaqe violacea
Choir of morning
#161 - 2015-03-24 04:03:08 UTC
3-Questions

1. Can cynos be lit on those mooring structures? If can, I guess people use those structure only as safe midpoint.

2. Any restriction around deploying Cynosural Inhibitor or anchoring bubble? Can small gang with Large bubbles disrupt moving supers?

3. Does weapon timer prohibit from mooring?
Rhavas
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#162 - 2015-03-24 04:45:11 UTC
It is very important that however you deal with the ships, that the pilots remain visible in space in wormholes and don't "disappear" into the station like is currently the k-space mechanic. As others have noted, with no Local, d-scan and warping to POS to get direct visibility. If people can dock, taking both their ship and self out of play, it results in a major reduction in potential content in w-space.

On the flipside, in order to accomplish this you still need some sort of forcefield-like mechanic for subcaps that are undocked. I think that having some sort of wormhole limitation that forces all ships to moor rather than dock and treats player ships other than the one they're in like storage would be find.

Most importantly, don't bring docking games to w-space. Ever. It's one of the things wormholers intentionally fled because docking games SUCK.

Author of Interstellar Privateer Shattered Planets, Wormholes and Game Commentary
Dr Cedric
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#163 - 2015-03-24 04:54:49 UTC
A few ideas:

Once moored, there is a minimum required time the ship must remain moored before unmooring.

During the unmooring process the ship is auto-aligned, and the pilot is given the option of choosing how far he is able to warp from the array (think ships launching off of RL carriers)

Ship auto e-warps and disappears when station gets blown up.

Allow fitting service for supers/titans at moorable stations, but requires a structure module to allow and rigs to increase personal/corp storage space.

Thats all for now

Cedric
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#164 - 2015-03-24 06:19:05 UTC
Okay, I don't think this has been mentioned anywhere in the thread so let's go:

How about if these structures cloak themselves when nothing's in range of them except for moored ships for a while? That would make it... well not almost as safe as logging off is now, but in the right region. Combine this with a rule that makes logging off a super in space more dangerous, ranging from a delay to never being removed from space, and maybe the quality of life improvement will be enough compensation.

In order to have interesting theft opportunities while providing relative security, ship access should be able to be locked to the ship's owner and this should be the default (although optionally setting some ships for corp access would be nice), BUT the owner of the structure should always be able to override, unmooring and ejecting all ships (at once?), but perhaps have this permanently damage the structure itself to discourage doing it lightly? I'm not sure how I feel about docking. Why not just make it mooring for all ship sizes?

(Obviously re. the above I would expect super pilots to personally own one of these structures, so they would only be concerned about its location being discovered and the structure being attacked.)

With these I don't think anything like a pos force field or even undocking immunity is necessary.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#165 - 2015-03-24 06:49:39 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
WarFireV wrote:
I don't get the point of adding in more penalties to owning a super capital.

Why would anyone ever moor something ever? What am I getting from making my super vulnerable when I moor it, over just logging it off in deep space?


its for when you are logged on not off just like in a pos shield


Why wouldn't I be cloaked at a safe spot if I was on-line, but not actively using the ship?

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#166 - 2015-03-24 06:53:19 UTC
Manfred Sideous wrote:
Titan bridging without pos shields? You are vulnerable when the bridge is up and unable to move. So you are in a situation where you cannot move and have no protection and since you just sent all your friends through a bridge no immediate backup. This issue needs resolving.


I think the answer is that this is their intent. It's a serious nerf to bridging.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#167 - 2015-03-24 07:07:07 UTC
As someone who owns a couple of Supercapitals, I still cannot see why I would want to moor one of them. Currently, my Titan alts can do a safe log off at a safe spot, completely disappear from space, and be safe forever. Very handy for someone like me, who has to deploy to foreign countries for six-seven months at a time.

As you propose it, I could moor him to a station, and run the risk that while I am unable to play the game, for whatever reason, someone destroys the station and my Supercapital.

The only mechanic that would make me moor a Supercapital is if it was no longer possible to do a safe log off and have the ship disappear from space. Which would, frankly, be enough of a nerf to keep me from ever logging in that character again.

So, if you want me to moor my Supercapital, you have to give me a reason. Does it mean I can refuel directly from my station hangar? Does it mean my Supercapital now gets unlimited cap from the station? Does it mean that my Supercapital's weapons now help to defend the station, even if I am logged off? Does it mean that my Supercapital becomes a tourist attraction and I earn a slow trickle of ISK for having it moored?

You are going to have to give me some incentive to actually moor the damn thing.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#168 - 2015-03-24 07:12:49 UTC
Manfred Sideous wrote:
Titan bridging without pos shields? You are vulnerable when the bridge is up and unable to move. So you are in a situation where you cannot move and have no protection and since you just sent all your friends through a bridge no immediate backup. This issue needs resolving.

The resolution is to not bridge everyone and leave the titan alone. So as you can see; there is no issue. This game is all about consequences for your actions. Blink
Emmy Mnemonic
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#169 - 2015-03-24 07:18:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Emmy Mnemonic
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Another element i want to throw in here is the idea of soft mooring which works a bit like the current POS shield so you can still move around and use dscan etc within range of the structure but you cannot target anything and you are invulnerable.

It is basically an area invulnerability effect around the station like a remote rep or similar. It allows you to warp to 0 or undock into relative safety.

You can of course be bumped unless you do a hard mooring or dock up.

Thoughts?


This raises a lot of questions, I do not have any suggestions or answers myself, but you need to consider these at least:

If you have soft mooring - why have mooring at all? Will there be any difference between these two states? Why not just allow d-scanning etc when moored?

What happens when logging a moored super is pretty obvious. But what will happen when logging or safe-logging with a soft-moored super? Will it be invulnerable until fully logged, will it warp away or will it automatically moore itself end then dissapear? When you log on the next time, will you be soft-moored or moored?

What will happen if the pilot ejects from a super within the "invul area" when "soft moored"?
Sometimes Supercapital Pilots needs to change corporations, change pilot or dock up. Today you can store your Super inside a POS shield pretty "safely" using password protection when doing stuff like that - how will you do that with these new structures, and will soft-mooring "replace" this POS-functionality of today? Could anyone else dock up in the ship when it is in the "invul area", or should the "invul area" have passwords and only be accessible by pilots with the PW? Or should standings control who can enter into the invul area? Is the ship bumpable when soft-mooring? Can anyone bump it or only people with access?

Will area-of-effect-modules such as Smart Bombs work within the invul-area? You dont need to target anything to let a Smart Bomb or 4 go off...
Will Soft Mooring only be available to mooreable ships, or to all ships?
Will warfare links work from inside a invul area?
Will probe launchers work from inside an invul area?
Will FoF missiles work from inside an invul area? (I know, thats pretty silly, but still...)

Can you light cynos within the invul-area and thus jump in a supercapital directly into the invul area? Or will cynos only be lightable >5000m outside of the invul area so you have to slowboat into the invul area? How will the invul area be visualized, how will a super pilot or an attacker know when he/she is about to pass the invul area boundary? How will a cyno-alt know when in range to the invul area (if the invul area will work as a POS shield today)?

Removing POS shield functionality of today just to replace it with pretty much the same POS shield functionality, although with new graphics and a completely new and modern softare design beneath it all - sure, I guess that'll work! Smile

Ex ex-CEO of Svea Rike [.S.R.]
Emmy Mnemonic
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#170 - 2015-03-24 07:26:14 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
As someone who owns a couple of Supercapitals, I still cannot see why I would want to moor one of them. Currently, my Titan alts can do a safe log off at a safe spot, completely disappear from space, and be safe forever. Very handy for someone like me, who has to deploy to foreign countries for six-seven months at a time.

As you propose it, I could moor him to a station, and run the risk that while I am unable to play the game, for whatever reason, someone destroys the station and my Supercapital.

The only mechanic that would make me moor a Supercapital is if it was no longer possible to do a safe log off and have the ship disappear from space. Which would, frankly, be enough of a nerf to keep me from ever logging in that character again.

So, if you want me to moor my Supercapital, you have to give me a reason. Does it mean I can refuel directly from my station hangar? Does it mean my Supercapital now gets unlimited cap from the station? Does it mean that my Supercapital's weapons now help to defend the station, even if I am logged off? Does it mean that my Supercapital becomes a tourist attraction and I earn a slow trickle of ISK for having it moored?

You are going to have to give me some incentive to actually moor the damn thing.


Also, CCP needs to give us a reason to keep the darned supers in the first place. Why discuss mooring and entosis-sov without discussing the reasons for having supers?!

With entosis-sov and no structures to grind, and with le fatigue, using supers will be even less common than today. Entosis-sov, no structures to grind, le fatigue makes it very hard and much to risky compared to the rewards to attack capitals - I will probably safe-log in a safespot, and unsub after entosis-sov - unless something extraordinary is presented from CCP in the coming months...

Ex ex-CEO of Svea Rike [.S.R.]
Jeaile
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#171 - 2015-03-24 08:08:40 UTC
Joran Sothos wrote:
I live in wormhole space.

The problem of intelligence is key.

Currently, supers cannot dock with an SMA of any size, so they are either always in space and visible, or logged off. Mooring doesn't affect them.

Capitals, though, CAN currently dock. Forcing them to stay out in space where they can be scanned is a HUGE boost to intel gathering (wormhole space or not).

I don't see why changing poses and how they work should penalize us. We should still be able to do after the patch what we can do before the patch.

Right now, there aren't a lot (any) details, so it's hard to give comments other than at the macro level. Show us some stats, and we can give better feedback.


Why should things be the same after the patch a they are now?

What makes you special?

People who use jump drives can't use them the same now as they could 6 months ago.

Things change man, go with it
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#172 - 2015-03-24 08:30:29 UTC
Super Capitals as they have always been are for the most part a corporate asset as opposed to personal. As such by having the visible it makes sense - it says "I am here, attack me". Basically it gives the opportunity to find areas where large amount of caps are stored and target them directly in order to take down the alliance in question. It also allows for a realistic ability to gather intelligence on what that alliances capabilities are.

I would say upon de-mooring provide a small invulnerability timer similar to undocking that can help them to 'get their senses' however it doesn't have to be anything major - as if someone hot drops you while unmooring... Well, you should of been aware that it was a possibility.

More so importantly, these stations themselves will be grids where battles take place. I would more so like to know what stops me in a super capital from mooring with a structure as i'm defending it to save myself and then using the invuln timer to get away and 'save' my capital. So I would actually say in retrospect there should be no timer, maybe 10 seconds at most of invulnerability. Then a weapons timer lock out that stops any mooring in the next 10 or so minutes based on weapons / logistics lockout.
Mechanical Infidel
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#173 - 2015-03-24 08:48:05 UTC
Can you focus on basic station mechanics. Multiple exits, limited docking radius, warp ins on top of the new docking radius.

The mooring process should take time(1min), be impossible under weapons lock, bubbles and scripted points. I think leaving the dock should have some kind of visual effect with the (5 to 10sec) small duration before ship control. I don't think people would moor there super caps in a non cyno jammed system anyway, so an ambush would be very exposed to counter attack.
Lu Ziffer
Balanced Unity
Goonswarm Federation
#174 - 2015-03-24 08:53:17 UTC
What should a moored ship be able todo?
-energy will come from the station so full power
-as it has infinite energy from the station it has infinite shield power(invulnerablitiy)
-it probaly can activate modules (ecm burst will end the mooring Big smile )
-it should not be able to lock targets (no remote rep with infinite cap no shooting stuff while moored)
-no capability to move or jump or bridge

The pilot should after activating the ship be in space seeing the space surrounding the station so he can decide to unmoor or not.


Again a little reminder Structures are supposed to get highslots and midslots for weapons and ewar.
I guess a Station a 100 or a 1000 times bigger then a titan can deal some damage, if someone wants to camp in front of it to get some kills of ships departing from it, he only has to tank the station Lol
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#175 - 2015-03-24 09:10:33 UTC
Give the supercapitals a reinforced mode and all those issues disappear.

Basically if you eject or whatever from a super, the thing becomes a structure in space. Anyone can shoot it, but it will enter reinforced mode. If the pilot does not show up in time, it can be blown up (like a Mobile Depot).

Oh and give it some configuration menu (or password) that allows/disallows specific other pilots to board it.
Yongtau Naskingar
Yongtau Naskingar Corporation
#176 - 2015-03-24 10:13:59 UTC
Even if you have alternatives to logging off while moored, it might still be useful for fitting and supplying issues, or just to swap out a sitter alt.

With the new Entosis links coming up, assuming you moor at stations that can't be destroyed (like outposts now) you get a warning, right? With the reinforced until prime time system. So you can undock before then? Assuming you can't just disable the mooring like the other services, which I think would be ridiculous. If you're gone for long times, logging of in a safe spot might be better, but that doesn't mean mooring has no value as second option?

For smaller structures, mooring small ships might be a goodfeel way to have your own little station where you can fitting and supply.

But without knowing what the future is for capitals, it's a bit weird to talk about it. I mean, will titans still bridge, or does the gate structure take over all that functionality? If not, allowing a few actions (like bridging) while mooring would go a long way to make it useful.
Anthar Thebess
#177 - 2015-03-24 11:12:38 UTC
Intell gathering on super capital locations will not be accurate, as wise people will still use holding alts.
No forcefield will be interesting factor, especially for the titan bridges.

Will this be abused by current alliances like to kill smaller alliance supers - for sure, to the extend CCP did not anticipated - for sure.

Still i like whole idea.

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Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#178 - 2015-03-24 11:24:13 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Will this be abused by current alliances like to kill smaller alliance supers - for sure, to the extend CCP did not anticipated - for sure.


This is a real consideration. If moored supercaps remain in space on log-off, and become free-to-kill on the structures demise, no small alliance can safely own a supercap.

At present, fishing crews happily spend weeks stalking lone Supers, and in the past alliances like us have happily spent weeks hellcamping stations, and bubblecaging POSes. At least now, if a pilot is aware his POS is caged, he can unsub the account and wait til attention wanes, and get out in weeks or months time. With this new system, big alliance fleets will lock down Mooring structures, bubble them for 100km in each direction, and wait for the structures demise and the guaranteed kill, with the Super a sitting helpless duck. Even e-warps and "emergency jump" mechanics on a structures demise are dodgy if not implemented right, as a sensible camper will sit a smartbombing ship or two on the Supercaps model as the structures demise approaches in order to agress it and give the fleet time to spread out and find the e-warped/e-jumped Super.
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#179 - 2015-03-24 11:48:58 UTC
I get why, but having capitals moored in w-space seems like a poor choice. It could certainly be a content driver, but since the gentlemen evicting you will be able to see how many caps you have - and thus know how many caps they need to seed - it makes for a slightly frustrating experience that favors the aggressor.

Of course, if the intel is intended, so be it.
zar dada
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
#180 - 2015-03-24 12:30:19 UTC
Will there be a limit to number of ships allowed to Moor on the new POS replacement structure?

Will there be a way to see the current grid while parked / docked at the structure?

What will the limitations for wspace?

For the transition, will ISK for current POS mods be replaced? And to whom will the ISK be sent? The owner of the POS player or corp?

Are you bringing station / docking games to wspace?

KB

fcftw.org