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[New structures] Item safety mechanics on structure destruction

First post First post
Author
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#81 - 2015-03-24 01:22:31 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Maybe the best of all worlds.

There has to be a benefit to the killer of the structure (aka loot), but you cannot screw over those already inside the structure either (making them poor).

So maybe doing all three of those at once.

You destroy a structure, 10% of it drops as loot immediately, 40% of it remains in space for indeterminent amount of time to be picked up, if not, becomes free for all loot, the other 50% gets moved another structure belonging to the same owner.

Basically, the person loses 10% of their belongings immediately, can recover 40% if they go get it, and has HALF of their stuff moved to the next structure. So you guaranteed lose half of your stuff, with the ability to recover up to 90% of your stuff if you go get it. You aren't spacepoor because you at least got 50% of it.

Evacing stuff out isn't mandatory anymore because you'll at least get half of it back, but the attacker gets some immediate benefit for attacking (loot), and some more loot if they catch or camp the spot of destruction.

The numbers can be played with. 10% seems low, 20% seems high, maybe 15% is the good drop loot rate.


Something like this, but with the stuff being scattered to planets rather than teleported to the next structure.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Somatic Neuron
Masterwork Productions Inc
#82 - 2015-03-24 02:58:54 UTC
Another option is just leaving the wreck as dockable by all. You cannot use any station services, and cannot add to your hangars, but you can take all your stuff. Leaving it dockable by all lets the assets stay in harms way...doesn't give you any free, immersion-breaking movement of goods, and solves all the other problems.

When the structures are destroyed, the loot comes from structure modules dropping, or structure rig parts as a loot cans.

Loot also comes from popping ships trying to sneak their assets out...
The Tallman
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2015-03-24 03:10:55 UTC
I like the idea of changing the stick in a bubble crap we got now. I am very glad to see new designs etc. on POS's.

But when you live in a POS in Null or WH there are things you need to be careful with else there will be no reason to live in one or stay in Null/WH. Without a semi safe POS to live in in WH space, there is no reason to be there, we could just leave our stuff in HS and un sub.

The new POS needs to be able to defend it's self at least as well as the current towers do. (I already have a Full time job, I don't need to pay CCP to have another job keeping the EVE client running.)

Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#84 - 2015-03-24 04:32:05 UTC
Seeing as these structures wil most likely be Corporation/Alliance Assets i would think an insurance idea would work best.
Both on individual Hangars and Corporate Hangars.

Keep the insurance at a 30 day period like ships.
and allow for increments in percentages 10%, 20%, 25%, 50%.........etc etc with upscaling costs for such insurance. It would provide an ISK sink.

Each item or stack of items would be randomly selected if 100% is not selected.
What gets protected then is shipped to either another Player structure or NPC station of choice.

What is not protected is then decided by the loot fairy if dropped or not.

This i think would be fair for all types of security space, besides these structures are going to be a huge investment.....1 man corps most likely will never have them.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#85 - 2015-03-24 05:40:47 UTC
More promoting safety and removing the looting and rewards of offensive gameplay styles.

Sigh...

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#86 - 2015-03-24 05:57:47 UTC
I am going to vote for a CONCORD decree that

A) has SOE and Interbus save all player items in their hangers from large and XL structures.
it would be placed in a contract to the player/corp with a % of the assets value as cost. The player could pick a NPC station or other alliance building at a cost.
All items in production would drop loot, all items on market plus the escrow would drop as loot. With standard loot chance.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#87 - 2015-03-24 06:01:43 UTC
Thank goodness we always can rely on the npcs

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
United Caldari Space Command.
#88 - 2015-03-24 08:15:23 UTC
How will this apply to ships that are currently docked and assembled? The bulkiness of them would be exponential - so would you be able to enter them with a POD and fly off? (Like a ship maintenance array) or will you need a bowhead?

Assumption would be Super Capitals and Titans would either be destroyed or hijacked on destruction.
Ben Ishikela
#89 - 2015-03-24 10:00:03 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
(...)
You destroy a structure, 10% of it drops as loot immediately, 40% of it remains in space for indeterminent amount of time to be picked up, if not, becomes free for all loot, the other 50% gets moved another structure belonging to the same owner.
(...)

Of everything i read, this has the biggest potential imho.
Additional Ideas:
. "Interbus cargo insurance" lets you insure your hangar. If anything is lost -> payout.
. "Interbus emergency Shipping" lets you set a destination. All assets inside destroyed structures will be traveling there in cloaky containers (only the 50%. see above). (takes time). pay X% per LY of its worth. (If you did not pay the premium service, only 25% or less is delivered)

I very much like the idea of nomadic pilots warping around battlefields several days later and try to control the grid of a blown up stations in hope to find something valuable (And i like little games inside big ones). Therefore idea to incentivice this kind of gameplay:
. Spawn wrecks (that are parts of the station)/refill the initial wreck randomly over time until 7days later. Then all is lost. Until then the 40%+ from above get slowly/bit by bit accessible to everyone over time. (Lore: Secure Compartments/Safe. Loose their backup energy systems and their cloak fails. See Sleeper Cache or unidentified structures for reference that it is possible within EVE). Somehow if the owner comes back immediatly, then he can recover more of his stuff than if he comes back later. The bleeding value is evenly distributed among all assetholders (40/7=5.7% of total per person drops each at a random time of day. OR 5.7/24= 0.24% drop each hour at a random minute) (this is a model for a linear rate. but does not have to be linear).
. the activation of a relic analyzer / cargo scanner would reveal the list of assets that are still present.
. cloaked containers can not be decloaked. (their objects simple do not exist in space yet. "hyperspace jo!")

Ninja looting is compelling but i much better like to have to control the grid first (teamwork and conflict). Therefore this:
. a former Asset-holder can click the wreck and select "disable own loot-safety". ("disable all loot-safety". for owner(/see corp roles also)). Then all his assets are decloaked in a single can at a random spot in space 150km+ around the wreck (same grid!). As warpin for everyone.
->To encourage fights between 2nd and 3rd party scavengers, i would make these cans needed to be hacked first in order to get access.

@new structure/ largeTractorBeam: I'd love them to collect/tractor these randomly overtime uncloaking cans. When they are full, they pop up as signature. Someone can then probe them, hack them and steal. (see relic sites)

Just some stuff to think about. Have fun with it!

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.

Kjode Gauk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#90 - 2015-03-24 11:35:58 UTC
Why not dump the cargo from exploding stations to the nearest planet?

I see


  • There's always a planet nearby and it's a static item that CCP / Players shouldn't be able to destroy? I hope.
  • Makes custom offices more relevant.
  • Gives somewhat of a penalty for trusting the loosing side (in the form of the tax) and potentially pays the other side if they move fast enough to replace the customs office.
  • Gives you an incentive to PVP in the form of the custom station. Destroying it might save you billions you won't have to pay to the persons that destroyed the station (and possibly moved in).
  • Doesn't have a problem with death by 10% if your items are moved to the nearest station you have access to (which sounds like a standing nightmare, could easily be manipulated).
  • Doesn't cause space clutter.
  • Possibly easier to understand to newbies than: go to X spot, but once you go you only have y time and z could happen while you're there.
  • No available inventory size shenanigans.
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#91 - 2015-03-24 11:51:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Aralyn Cormallen
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • First option is to have the structure turn into a wreck - fitted structure modules could drop as loot, while items inside the structure would only be accessible to their rightful owner(s), possibly through salvaging. Users docked at the time of the structure destruction would still be docked inside the wreck, but unable to dock back should they exit.

  • Another option is to use the same mechanic we have for planetary launches. When a structure is destroyed, all assets are moved into special containers. A container exists for each individual that stored items in the structure, as well as corporation entities and are spread around planets. When this happens, an entry would appear on the owner journal giving a warp-in point to go to. Please note such containers would not be destructible at all, and could not be scanned until the rightful owner comes to retrieve his or her loot. The duration at which those entries would stay remains entirely dependent to the structure type and player condition when it was destroyed (logged off, account lapsed etc…). Player docked inside the structure would be spread around the solar system.

  • Third option could be to have the items inside the structure moved to another structure belonging to the same owners.



Option 1 is by far the better of the three, but in order to prevent a massive wreck accumulation there might need to be some limitation on it (such as having wrecks only for Large and Extra-Large structures, with option 2 for anything smaller), or some solution to consolidate wrecks (maybe have further destroyed structures on the same grid merge with the older wrecks). Maybe allow former-owners to rebuild their old wreck, rather than have to plant a new one. As for obtaining your stuff from a wreck, I would even go so far as say accessing "your" part of the wreck should be a one-time deal, and as soon as you disengage from the wreck, everything else gets ejected (either on to the wreck grid, or in to space as in option 2). This would force someone to prioritise their possessions, as well as solving the "what do the destroyers get out of this" question.

Option 3 is far too safe and easy, and renders the whole point of destroying them rather than capturing them moot (since you are actually helping your enemy by moving their possessions to safety for them!), and as Scatim pointed out, could be used hilariously by organisations to move whole alliances in the blink of an eye.
Cpt Patrick Archer
I HAVE THE POWER OF GOD AND ANIME ON MY SIDE
Blue Eyes and Exodia Toon Duelist Kingdom Duelers
#92 - 2015-03-24 14:10:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Cpt Patrick Archer
I vote option 2.

Maybe add a 'small' structure like a salvage platform that has to be deployed next to the wreck of the old structures. This would allow (jump)freighters or Bowheads to moor (or dock) here.
I think this is needed since my corp alone has about 1.000.000.000 m3 worth items spread out between various members and hangers. It will be impossible to 'safely' extract that much stuff from a destroyed structure.

Edit: The salvage platform structure would then give you access to what is in the destroyed structure it is anchored (read deployed next to) on.
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#93 - 2015-03-24 15:29:03 UTC
Maybe we should iterate entirely on the mechanics of Wrecks, salvaging and looting?

instead of individual wrecks, maybe a debris field that you use a t1 or t2 salvager on and it gives a random selection of mods from ships that have died along with a few bits of salvage?

Would remove the annoyance of people rushing carrier and super wrecks, or the ridiculous situation where a MTU grabs a titan wreck and pulls it about at 1000m/sec (which tbh in b-r was hilariously and frustratingly absurd)

I do prefer the idea of outpost wrecks having a majority of player / corp hangars stuff go to the nearest planet and having to either move it back up via a POCO or via planetary launches, but feel that the victor should get some spoils at least.

there needs to be a mechanic though where a conquering hostile force can choose to capture structures like outposts and ihubs without destroying them, with a longer capture time to do so.
John McCreedy
Eve Defence Force
Get Off My Lawn
#94 - 2015-03-24 18:23:56 UTC
Forgetting the individual concerns I've raised in the threads, there's a design feature I don't like about this. Note, design not gameplay. Why individual structures for each thing, deployed in different places? It would be much cooler if these where designed in a modular fashion so that alliances had single large sprawling complex in space that encompassed all services with everything physically interconnected. Hundreds of kilometres of structures. You want a sense of scale, that would give it to you.

13 years and counting. Eve Defence Force is recruiting.

Alexis Nightwish
#95 - 2015-03-24 18:46:38 UTC
Reading through this thread it blows me away how much wailing and gnashing of teeth there is about structure destruction. What kind of culture does nullsec have when people lose their minds over a mechanic in which you get to keep all your stuff when you lose? There's no real consequence beyond the inconvenience of having to go pick it up and move it. And the proposed changes are even a change from the current system where if a station is flipped you can be denied docking access, thus losing access to all your stuff, so the new mechanic placates the risk averse even more!

I just don't get why CCP won't let stuff drop as loot. Isn't killing people and taking their stuff a content driver? Isn't fighting people to defend your stuff a content driver? Wouldn't the potential of your assets being at risk encourage you to live in and use your space?

Sadly, this thread isn't about what manner, or how much you'll lose if a housing structure is destroyed, but how will CCP protect your stuff when you failed to do so. Sad

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers

GeeShizzle MacCloud
#96 - 2015-03-24 18:57:59 UTC
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Reading through this thread it blows me away how much wailing and gnashing of teeth there is about structure destruction. What kind of culture does nullsec have when people lose their minds over a mechanic in which you get to keep all your stuff when you lose? There's no real consequence beyond the inconvenience of having to go pick it up and move it. And the proposed changes are even a change from the current system where if a station is flipped you can be denied docking access, thus losing access to all your stuff, so the new mechanic placates the risk averse even more!

I just don't get why CCP won't let stuff drop as loot. Isn't killing people and taking their stuff a content driver? Isn't fighting people to defend your stuff a content driver? Wouldn't the potential of your assets being at risk encourage you to live in and use your space?

Sadly, this thread isn't about what manner, or how much you'll lose if a housing structure is destroyed, but how will CCP protect your stuff when you failed to do so. Sad


yah cause if i have a RL emergency that keeps me away from the game for days and my super is moored onto a L structure, itd be great to come back after say a week of being in hospital to find my super was taken from under me just because something unfortunate happened in the real world and hostile attacked that pos.

Yahh that's a fun game. Go back and rethink your argument in a way that doesn't penalises people for not playing 23.5/7.
oohthey ioh
Doomheim
#97 - 2015-03-24 19:02:16 UTC
Amarisen Gream wrote:
I am going to vote for a CONCORD decree that

A) has SOE and Interbus save all player items in their hangers from large and XL structures.
it would be placed in a contract to the player/corp with a % of the assets value as cost. The player could pick a NPC station or other alliance building at a cost.
All items in production would drop loot, all items on market plus the escrow would drop as loot. With standard loot chance.


that would work as a great isk sink
The Tallman
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2015-03-24 20:26:55 UTC
The new pos's still need timers when they fall under attack. No one can drive home from work to play eve in the middle of the day.

The new pos's also still need some kind of shield or bubble of some sort as a visual reference as to when you are within control distance of the pos.

When docked: my suggestion is you switch to a view of your station like it was your ship with ship overview and UI interface. If you are to defend your POS manually, you will need to be able to see the battle. Makes sense that in scifi you could see whats happening outside your POS from within it.

Option for docking and being inside, screens/new UI that still shows you what's going on outside.
John McCreedy
Eve Defence Force
Get Off My Lawn
#99 - 2015-03-24 20:44:12 UTC  |  Edited by: John McCreedy
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Reading through this thread it blows me away how much wailing and gnashing of teeth there is about structure destruction. What kind of culture does nullsec have when people lose their minds over a mechanic in which you get to keep all your stuff when you lose? There's no real consequence beyond the inconvenience of having to go pick it up and move it. And the proposed changes are even a change from the current system where if a station is flipped you can be denied docking access, thus losing access to all your stuff, so the new mechanic placates the risk averse even more!

I just don't get why CCP won't let stuff drop as loot. Isn't killing people and taking their stuff a content driver? Isn't fighting people to defend your stuff a content driver? Wouldn't the potential of your assets being at risk encourage you to live in and use your space?

Sadly, this thread isn't about what manner, or how much you'll lose if a housing structure is destroyed, but how will CCP protect your stuff when you failed to do so. Sad


It's because you're missing the point. The issue isn't structure destruction, the issue is Outpost (and its replacement) destruction and couple that with the current 'trollceptor' proposal. Would you store Carriers, Dreads, BS, HACs etc. in a station, especially if a ceptor can cause it to blow up? Let's make Jita destructible. Then see how many people start 'wailing' on the forum.

13 years and counting. Eve Defence Force is recruiting.

Dr Cedric
Independent Miners Corporation
#100 - 2015-03-24 21:31:51 UTC
Somatic Neuron wrote:
Another option is just leaving the wreck as dockable by all. You cannot use any station services, and cannot add to your hangars, but you can take all your stuff. Leaving it dockable by all lets the assets stay in harms way...doesn't give you any free, immersion-breaking movement of goods, and solves all the other problems.

When the structures are destroyed, the loot comes from structure modules dropping, or structure rig parts as a loot cans.

Loot also comes from popping ships trying to sneak their assets out...



To add to this idea:

Once the structure has been "blown-up" the attacker can hack/salvage/archeology the structure to gain access to the hangars/cans of people inside the station. Hacking is impossible for 1st day (week), then becomes (insert fancy math/logarithm/function) easier as time goes on.

Likewise, add a hack/salvage/archeology mechanic to allow the structure owner(s) to repair it over time with some optimal time frame that is slightly randomized.

Cedric