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[New structures] Item safety mechanics on structure destruction

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Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
#41 - 2015-03-23 17:46:57 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • Another option is to use the same mechanic we have for planetary launches. When a structure is destroyed, all assets are moved into special containers. A container exists for each individual that stored items in the structure, as well as corporation entities and are spread around planets. When this happens, an entry would appear on the owner journal giving a warp-in point to go to. Please note such containers would not be destructible at all, and could not be scanned until the rightful owner comes to retrieve his or her loot. The duration at which those entries would stay remains entirely dependent to the structure type and player condition when it was destroyed (logged off, account lapsed etc…). Player docked inside the structure would be spread around the solar system.

This one seems best, to a point. In terms of the game world, emergency launches of all goods when the structure reaches critical makes enough sense, as does the kicking out of docked players. If the place blows with you inside, you find yourself emergency warping in your capsule (or ship I guess if you're in one?) to a random spot in the system. If you're not online, you come online in e-warp, just like logging out at a safe spot, again to a random spot in system.

The structure should drop fitted loot as usual, and I think something like 10-20% of all goods from all users should also be lost in this way before the emergency launches. Some things just don't make it to the launch ports. This gives attackers an immediate pay out, and preserves the bulk of the goods lost, though they still have to be retrieved. The launch system bookmark should be asset searchable, so you can see what survived and what it will take to evac it all. The expiration timer should be long, weeks or months.
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#42 - 2015-03-23 17:53:01 UTC
If the second option (Journal Entries) is used
"I can't get my own stuff, but will have someone else get it for me."

A few other ideas:

  • Allow the player to create a Bookmark from that entry, and give (or contract) that Bookmark to others.
  • The time the loot cans become available should have some variability by person.
  • The loot cans should become scannable after a significant period of time. "Weeks" might be appropriate to handle more casual players. This time may be variable as well.
  • Multiple loot cans should spawn, based on the volume of ships and items. They may or may not be in the same grid.
  • These events should show up as notifications or EVE mails for the affected player.

Fix POSes.  Every player should want one (even if all players can't have one).
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#43 - 2015-03-23 18:08:37 UTC
I rather like the second option, but would like that in conjunction with this:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5605523#post5605523

I would make a distinction between personal items and those owned by a corp, because I have an eye on hisec here that the ones owned by a corp can only be picked up by those people who stay in the corp, so that war deccers can have a chance to grab them and get rewarded.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Yroc Jannseen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#44 - 2015-03-23 18:19:10 UTC
As I think about this more it seems that by allowing us to destroy structures, you are actually taking away the choice of, not destroying structures.

Hate to draw real world comparisons, but I'd say completely levelling your opponent and then rebuilding is an exception not the norm. If we look at null wars in the past, of course the only option has been capturing. Yes players became clever and started things like deadzoning. But that really has only been used a few times, albeit it was a fairly late development in the dominion sov cycle. Point is in a lot of cases players have found it beneficial to capture stations and then use that infrastructure against their enemy as a staging point.

Having the option to destroy everything is great, is it possible within the architecture of the new system to just capture structures instead?

Of course I think it would make sense to limit this to XL structures only.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#45 - 2015-03-23 18:28:23 UTC
Yroc Jannseen wrote:
As I think about this more it seems that by allowing us to destroy structures, you are actually taking away the choice of, not destroying structures.

Hate to draw real world comparisons, but I'd say completely levelling your opponent and then rebuilding is an exception not the norm. If we look at null wars in the past, of course the only option has been capturing. Yes players became clever and started things like deadzoning. But that really has only been used a few times, albeit it was a fairly late development in the dominion sov cycle. Point is in a lot of cases players have found it beneficial to capture stations and then use that infrastructure against their enemy as a staging point.

Having the option to destroy everything is great, is it possible within the architecture of the new system to just capture structures instead?

Of course I think it would make sense to limit this to XL structures only.


This is a good point too - Nullarbor mentioned boarding these structures by hostiles IIRC in the keynote.

And FFS, why are we terribly bent out of shape about getting stuff back to the original owners if an outpost blows up? If an outpost is captured now, all you get is one ship-load of stuff out - and only if you happened to be docked before your alliance lost it.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#46 - 2015-03-23 18:29:12 UTC
John McCreedy wrote:
My Alliance has eight doctrines. That's probably about average for coalition-based alliances. Of those doctrines, four have alternate fits. Two are Caps. I also own a Dreadnought (like many null sec people).

- I go on holiday for two weeks, lying on a beach somewhere. I'm still subscribing to the game therefore I'm still technically an active account but I'm away from the game for legitimate real life reasons. I get back, I log on and everything has gone boom, and the timer has expired. All my stuff has gone. Billions of ISK of assets are gone because I wanted to go on holiday with the wife and kids.

Why would I live in Sov-null?

- I am on deployment with my Alliance somewhere, taking the fight to enemy territory. Our stuff is attacked and we loose the timer. It goes boom. I've now got to bring in a freighter to haul my Caps, my Battleships, my Cruisers, my Frigates plus whatever roaming and ratting/mining assets I have in the area back to the nearest station/structure. Rather than being on deployment, having fun with my space-friends, I'm sat hauling my stuff day after day because I need an escort and/or scouts to reclaim my stuff. What happens if I don't own a Freighter? Can't move my Caps.

Why would I live in Sov-null?


Just a couple of scenarios. I can think of others. Let me be clear. I do not want total safety of our investment but having anything you dock in and store assets in being able to be destroyed is a unimaginably bad idea. The system works perfectly fine right now. I can blow up POS, POCOS, iHubs and TCUs but I cannot blow up Stations/Outposts. Why do you have to change this dynamic of the game? It works perfectly fine. In the new system we could blow up moon miners, scanning arrays, billboards, monuments, administration hubs and it will be no different to how the game is played now.

If you persist in this ridiculous idea of making people's assets vulnerable to ejection then forcing them in to a gameplay element they find about as fun as a poke in the eye then people will simply cease to store their assets in destructible structures and use NPC stations (where available) or simply move out of null sec altogether (where NPC stations are unavailable). These plans are ill advised and will drive people out of sovereign null. Leave the dynamic as it is, please.

Finally, what if you're sat in the Captain's Quarters when the thing blows up? Honestly, CCP, for all the world this sounds like someone had an idea and you've posted it as a proposal without thinking things through.


Really? You think a strategy game where you can literally never lose anything is a good thing? What is the point to playing if there is no risk of losing things, and no reward for taking something?

Response to Case 1: The log entry will have a long subscribed timer; 30 days minimum. 2ez.

Response to Case 2: If you go on deployment and leave your home undefended for too long, you run the risk of your home burning down, squatters, etc. Solution is simple: make sure to leave a jump clone behind in case of emergency.


As far as the proposed ideas, a wreck from which one can only undock once is not really effective. A player will be limited to one ship, probably an expensive faction BS and a few hundred m3 of cargo unless they own a carrier or other jump capable ship. This is pretty much a guaranteed lossmail. Hell camp the wrecks for a week and farm kills. Almost nothing will ever be saved or killed. May as well just destroy everything and be done with it.

The canisters idea has potential for a great deal of recovery, loss, and pvp for those willing to take the time to keep an eye on things. It has risks and rewards for all players. Spawning the cans on individual grids means no massive jet can lag. I support this idea. But the log entry needs to be significantly long so that a subscribed player that happens to be on vacation, business trip, military deployment, etc can get back in time to retrieve their things.

I think that station vaults and other station containers could have the potential for protecting assets beyond the random loot drop mechanics. This would give them added value beyond just organizing your hanger contents. Can this be done?

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Pingpong Chingchong
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2015-03-23 18:40:39 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hello people,

We would like your feedback on the various new structure lines presented during Fanfest and on our latest structure blog.

This particular thread is going to focus what happens to items stored inside structures when they blow up (or end up captured) in a blaze of glorious space explosions.


  • First option is to have the structure turn into a wreck - fitted structure modules could drop as loot, while items inside the structure would only be accessible to their rightful owner(s), possibly through salvaging. Users docked at the time of the structure destruction would still be docked inside the wreck, but unable to dock back should they exit.

  • Another option is to use the same mechanic we have for planetary launches. When a structure is destroyed, all assets are moved into special containers. A container exists for each individual that stored items in the structure, as well as corporation entities and are spread around planets. When this happens, an entry would appear on the owner journal giving a warp-in point to go to. Please note such containers would not be destructible at all, and could not be scanned until the rightful owner comes to retrieve his or her loot. The duration at which those entries would stay remains entirely dependent to the structure type and player condition when it was destroyed (logged off, account lapsed etc…). Player docked inside the structure would be spread around the solar system.

  • Third option could be to have the items inside the structure moved to another structure belonging to the same owners.



Such gameplay is necessary if we wish players to use those new structures and not stash all of their items in NPC stations. Also, please note, it is possible for such mechanics to only be available in the largest structures (most likely XL) since existing Starbases do not have any kind of item safety mechanic (and would likely end up as L size equivalent in the new model).


I think the third option is best, given you want to encourage their use. Ship their loot that survives (you DO plan on causing some of it to be lost right?) to the nearest owned structure. Barring the existence of another structure, send it to the nearest NPC low/null station.
Alexis Nightwish
#48 - 2015-03-23 18:41:30 UTC
Option Four: 50% of the contents are destroyed, and the other 50% are lootable by the victors, just like normal drop mechanics. You want people to defend their space? Put their assets at risk and I guarantee this will happen.

The other options sound like weaksauce, security blanket crap suited for games other than EVE Online.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Sin Kash
Perkone
Caldari State
#49 - 2015-03-23 18:51:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Sin Kash
#1 - Only XL structures should have all these fancy asset saving features. Keep S/M/L structures like POS and how they currently drop items when the structure explodes. This will keep the eve people happy with loot pinatas from most structures.

#2 - I like the idea of cold storage on the planet/moon mentioned before. So an XL structure is exploded. All the assets fall to the moon. And you cannot retrieve those assets unless you are in the corp/alliance that owns the structure at the moon. If no structure is there, one has to be setup for your corp/alliance to get the assets. Or maybe there are access rights that can be setup for blues to get assets off the planet.

In this way, asset recovery can still act much of the same way as it does with stations for XL structures only.

You can even make the pos exploding animation show a huge dropship heading to the moon's surface with the loot.

#3 - barring #2 working I think some kind of insurance payout is the most realistic option for asset recovery. It just seems like all the other options are convoluted and don't really feel natural or real.
Dunkle Lars
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2015-03-23 18:52:27 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
An option we are considering to provide loot even while having a safety for personal assets would be dropping some percentage of anything "in progress" like industry job build materials for example. So that along with the structure fittings should provide some goodies for an aggressor to take home.

Dedicated aggressors could also attempt to camp out the system to prevent collection of assets from safed cans, especially in nullsec or wormholes.

Evac ops where big fleets form up to collect their stuff later on could also be a thing.



As you mention in the OP, safety for stored items should only be for XL class structures. Everything thing else should drop stored items+ items in progress.

I sometimes decide to shoot a pos when I need some isk. If nothing would drop then why would I bother to attack? There needs to be a strong motivator if you want people to continue shooting poses.

XL level Buildings = provide NPC station level security.
Everything else = same as now
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#51 - 2015-03-23 18:54:15 UTC
none of this is feasible unless you're finally going to re-introduce cargo hold limits on freighters or........JUMP FREIGHTERS.

ccp nullabor have you forgotten the cargo nerf fozzie did?

im still trying to wrap my head around the part of recovering the items from the station cans for a friend.

he lights cyno.. I jump in, and welp I cant haul everything he has back to where ever.

that's broken, everyone has a huge inventory you know how many pack rats there are in a station hanger in null sec?

and I find it incredible how you guys are not clearly thinking about members of our community that may not be able to play the game 23/7 due to

1) being deployed in real life
2) Vile-rats and other people like him
3) real life changes
4) Persons fighting illness or cancer

list can go on and on.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#52 - 2015-03-23 19:02:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
Soldarius wrote:
Response to Case 1: The log entry will have a long subscribed timer; 30 days minimum. 2ez.


30 days is nothing. Eve commonly sees players who serve in the armed forces and are deployed away for literally months or years, or who go through long periods of serious illness, or others who are unable to play for a variety of other reasons. If their hangers are ransacked during their time away while there's nothing they can do about it they're much less likely to bother to resubscribe.

What you're saying effectively is that if anyone thinks they may find Real Life interfering with their ability to play Eve for a while, then the new structures/nullsec environment is not for them, or that they should routinely ship their assets to safe NPC stations (something the OP explicitly said they are trying to avoid).

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Taladool
NexGen Industries.
#53 - 2015-03-23 19:21:21 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hello people,

We would like your feedback on the various new structure lines presented during Fanfest and on our latest structure blog.

This particular thread is going to focus what happens to items stored inside structures when they blow up (or end up captured) in a blaze of glorious space explosions.


  • First option is to have the structure turn into a wreck - fitted structure modules could drop as loot, while items inside the structure would only be accessible to their rightful owner(s), possibly through salvaging. Users docked at the time of the structure destruction would still be docked inside the wreck, but unable to dock back should they exit.

  • Another option is to use the same mechanic we have for planetary launches. When a structure is destroyed, all assets are moved into special containers. A container exists for each individual that stored items in the structure, as well as corporation entities and are spread around planets. When this happens, an entry would appear on the owner journal giving a warp-in point to go to. Please note such containers would not be destructible at all, and could not be scanned until the rightful owner comes to retrieve his or her loot. The duration at which those entries would stay remains entirely dependent to the structure type and player condition when it was destroyed (logged off, account lapsed etc…). Player docked inside the structure would be spread around the solar system.

  • Third option could be to have the items inside the structure moved to another structure belonging to the same owners.



Such gameplay is necessary if we wish players to use those new structures and not stash all of their items in NPC stations. Also, please note, it is possible for such mechanics to only be available in the largest structures (most likely XL) since existing Starbases do not have any kind of item safety mechanic (and would likely end up as L size equivalent in the new model).


Option 2 and 3, Start with option 3, if things in the station are not collect after x amount of time (few days) then the assests get transferred to your new home station by npc's over the period of days/weeks depending on how far away it is. There should also be an option to skip the collect in person and have it shipped right away, taking however long it would take the npcs to move the stuff.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#54 - 2015-03-23 19:23:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
CCP: Is the intention that existing outposts will be converted into the new equivalent structures once the new system is fully in place? Or will they remain in place in their current form?

I'm mainly asking because there are a LOT of assets built up in some outposts (the first one was constructed nearly 10 years ago now) from a LOT of different people and I wonder whether tracking all those items in the event of a station being destroyed might be problematic at all depending on the option you go with.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Varg Krugar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2015-03-23 19:29:21 UTC
i'm not entirely sure there is any valuable gameplay to be had from this, but there is this real world problem that an abundance of space litter in orbit around a planet hampers space launches. i'm not implying that blowing up an outpost should cause damage clouds to spawn at POCOs or something, i'm just putting this out here on the off chance it inspires a good idea in someone else

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ablation_cascade
Angry Mustache
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#56 - 2015-03-23 19:31:30 UTC
I think the difference in safety between NPC stations and XL structures can't be stressed enough in the new system.

People would minimize the amount of stuff they have in XL structures, only bringing the minimum necessary, and valuables/"luxuries" would be safely stored in NPC systems, that already happens now, with capital stockpiles in lowsec outposts as they can't be conquered or bubbled in.

Player owned sov wouldn't feel like "home" if none of your valuable were there, but rather a hunting camp where you bring what you need to go hunt some big game.

An official Member of the Goonswarm Federation Complaints Department.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2015-03-23 19:35:05 UTC
Why not use the impounding code? All assets are moved to closest NPCstation (or HQ) and taxxed (like impounding code does) at say 10-25% of assets value. Something very stiff cost wise but not the end of the world of super discouraging if someone was a victim of a short window to evac.

It could also be paired with a launching of a can system. Give people 2 options, one, you get your crap back but have to hold the space. Option two, you take a big ISK tax to unimpound your stuff but it is moved for you.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#58 - 2015-03-23 19:47:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Terranid Meester
One reason for destroyable outposts for those wondering, is that if all of 0.0 becomes full of stations then there is no longer any need to build more. Therefore the process of building a station becomes redundant and CCP may as well put npc stations in all of 0.0 space to replace the player built ones. Another reason is that CCP stated themselves that pretty much everything in eve should be destroyable.

As to the goon guy who mentioned that completely leveling of assets is not the norm but mostly levelling is the usual way of warfare. In war, things get destroyed, not generally saved. It is 'preferable' that assets survive but it is not the usual outcome. Bridges get blown up and eventually get replaced. Cities survive [excepting atomic weapons] but the buildings in them generally don't.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#59 - 2015-03-23 20:00:13 UTC
OP wrote:
Also, please note, it is possible for such mechanics to only be available in the largest structures (most likely XL) since existing Starbases do not have any kind of item safety mechanic (and would likely end up as L size equivalent in the new model).

I like this thinking, thanks for considering it. I very much like the idea of asset protection for huge investments (I'm thinking of provi getting burned to the ground). Equally, it is important that there is incentive to attack forgotten and abandoned structures in empire (I'm thinking of current unfuelled tower with tasty loot). This could be balanced effectively by size of structure.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#60 - 2015-03-23 20:05:11 UTC
Even if stations can't be destructible now, whatever system is used for these structures in space should account for the fact that it will be applied in the future to destruction of stations.
I have beenreally happy to hear CCP say that everything should be destructible in the future!

I like Phoenix Jones idea about mixing the three options, but I would replace option 3 teleport with insurance money paid to the owner, as I am strongly against teleporting assets (except for contract only items like BPO or BPC). Those item that do not have a market value should be spread around randomly in the various steps below.

So 10% to 20% are lootable when the destruction occurs.

20% to 40% is spread around in cans in the system, each can getting an equal share of the value as much as possible (including contract only items, that could throw the values of each can off), but with a very long timer where the cans stay only visible to their owner. They would still not remain that way indefinitely, and every week or month, one of the can starts popping up for all to scan and loot.

The remaining value (except for contract only items) is reimbursed through an insurance paid to the player the next time they log in, while the items are automatically recycled by the game and destroyed forever for all.

Contract only items that have not been spread/lost in 1 and 2 are simply contracted back to the player, within an infinite period of time.

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