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Dev blog: Back Into the Structure

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Author
Styphon the Black
Forced Euthanasia
#381 - 2015-03-23 14:45:34 UTC
Most of the suggestions the Devs came up with I like and I have no problem with.

Seems really interesting..

There is however, one structure that I think will be the most pain, open for general abuse by players and break the way the game is currently played. The "Observatory arrays".

"Dedicated to intelligence gathering.
•Service module possibilities: Being able to increase, decrease or block Star Map filters in the solar systems they’re deployed, act as solar system wide D-scan blockers, disrupt ship intelligence in the solar system, take over player tracking capabilities from NPC agents or be able to affect or pinpoint cloak users. We are considering basing their effectiveness through a network coverage (like cell phones) so that a single one may not be that useful, but maintaining a bunch of them in space could give a significant advantage.
•Rigs possibilities: anything affecting the duration or effectiveness of what’s mentioned above."

I hate the idea of decreasing the Star Filters for anyone. This would severely hurt the lone explorer pilot game play and would only give advantage to the large alliance blocks power.

D-Scan blocking would make finding and killing the home alliance much more difficult for the people that make things in nullsec blowup. Which CCP wants.

Also hate the cloak user pinpointing. Again. This will make the large alliance, with the system as their home, more powerful and people will be less likely to venture into these SOV systems.

I promise if you make Observatory Arrays with this abilities as described that there will be a lot less smaller PVP in nullsec (which is already pretty anemic) and will shrink pvp down to large alliance fleet battles. Small group raiders will be the most negatively affected by this structures abilities.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#382 - 2015-03-23 14:46:32 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Kel'Taran wrote:
So with the Large size structures (New POS) only being attackable via entosis (look at the pics in the blog attack method all says entosis) you have gone and taken away the primary use for dreads once new sov goes into effect and carriers have no more repping use either.



That's something that was also brought up during the Fanfest structure round table which needs to be taken care of, yes.



Wasn't a fan of pospreys, nor carriers repairing pos stuff (kinda a crap job for them).

Adding in structure grinds isn't a positive thing nor a good role for dreads. We're trying to get away from that. I'm not sure what it should turn into though.

Yaay!!!!

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#383 - 2015-03-23 14:51:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
CCP Nullarbor wrote:

1. We need to have a long think about Outpost + Outpost Upgrade reimbursement, particularly because they have such a long history of investment form multiple previous owners. If you have any ideas on how to do this far


I'd suggest reimbursing the corp wallet of the corp who dropped it? The longer the station was in space, the smaller the reimbursment.

About the transfer of structures, it seems like a much needed functionality in my opinion. You could create emergent gameplay for the hauling role: People installing structures for you. And you would allow diplomatic deals to be made, that kind of stuff. Or people moving away from eve for a while and wanting other people to own it to manage it if needed.

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CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#384 - 2015-03-23 14:53:56 UTC
Brain Gehirn wrote:
Questions:

- How are you going to handle multiple structures affecting the same system wide effects?
- How are you going to deal with the amount of structures in space that this is going to generate? (imagine systems near Jita.. the amount of structures on each)
- Why the total removal of the shield forcefield? This is still better than mooring for supercaps unless you want they all to die at some point
- What is the strategical benefit of this system over the old system in combat situations?
- What is the limit of on grid structures? Otherwise we could just build a giant lag city of hell to protect ourselfs since there is no forcefield
- How would you handle the pain that is going to be for players if we start to spam systems with little market hubs? Am I going to warp 20 times inside the same system to fit a ship?
- Why a player will prefer the new system over outposts since his itens are (by far) better 'defended' inside outposts? Isnt this going to nerf nullsec A LOT instead of making people a little more happier?




  • It is most likely only one structure will provide the system wide effect per solar system. Remember, those will be delivered through service modules, not the structure themselves, so we can tell the user another module of this type is already active and that needs to be taken care of (destroyed, disabled or whatever) before you can install yours. Those could also work with a large cooldown, so you cannot online another service module providing the same system wide effect while the other one is on cooldown. There are ways to solve this particular problem.

  • We don't want to provide hard caps for structure, but we don't want everyone to anchor structures in the same solar system either. We will most likely have soft barriers, like fuel cost, or NPC taxes going up the more player structures there are within the same solar system for instance. Another way to do this is to have finite resources. For instance, only 20 caches of datacores could exist per solar system, so if you have 200 structures with this datacore service module installed not many of them are going to spawn anything.

  • Forcefield mechanic has issues that we want to remove in the new system, if possible. The (super)capital issues are indeed something that needs to be discussed, a thread was created for that purpose there.

  • Strategical benefit is simple: we want structure gameplay to involve players and not bore them to tears. To this end structures need to be a lot more enjoyable to use, which led us to have them fitted and used like ships (without movement).

  • Yeah, there is going to be a limit, it depends what the range is going to be on the structure weapon themselves, since we would like to avoid structures shooting other structures (especially if they can only be taken down from the Entosis module). We also need the limit due to the rendering graphical toll on your computer, having too many of them will cause your GPU to melt while begging mercy.

  • Market is a very important upgrade, and maybe not something that we are going to allow on the smaller structures. Remember, service modules will have CPU and PWG requirements, and those can be balanced to fit on specific sizes. On the same example, we are not going to allow Supercapital Ship Assembly capabilities on a small structure.

  • That is why we need to make stored items relatively safe and give players a chance to defend their assets. The current issue we have is the over-proliferation of outposts - since they are not destructible there is less and less of a reason to build them in the first place. We want emergent content and to this end structures being destroyed really is something we feel attached to.
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#385 - 2015-03-23 14:56:21 UTC  |  Edited by: EvilweaselFinance
Altrue wrote:

I'd suggest reimbursing the corp wallet of the corp who dropped it? The longer the station was in space, the smaller the reimbursment.


Why? Neither of these make sense. Why should we get compensated for outposts we lost, and why should our compensation depend on how long it was in space? If the asset suddenly becomes worthless due to a patch change, that's still money directly out of our pocket.

It would be bizzare if we got a refund on this outpost we dropped in 2008 and lost in 2009: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/outpost/46DP-O, but not outposts we currently own and have owned for years but did not drop ourselves.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#386 - 2015-03-23 14:58:30 UTC
And by the way guys, proper discussion threads are now up in the Feature and Ideas subforum.



Feel free to comment there as it will be easier for everyone to filter the topics that way.
Banko Mato
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#387 - 2015-03-23 14:59:22 UTC
Wow, a lot of great ideas and looking forward to all the changes.

I would like the "rigs for structures" to be divided a bit:
There should be modifications that are chosen at the time the structure gets put into space and "anchored" and which cannot be modified until the entire thing gets torn down again (if at all possible for the XL thingies).
On the other hand regular rigs should work the same as they do for ships (replaceable at any time but destroyed upon being removed).
I imagine the thing like T3-Subsystems, but without swapping after the entire thing is assembled (meaning the "subs" or "permanent rigs" modify the base attributes the structure brings to the field and provide bonuses or modifiers that cannot be gained by regular rigs).

Therefore I think an additional phase when setting up structures would make sense:
Introduction of gantries similar to the one used for POCOS. They come in the sizes M,L and XL (usable for all structures of the corresponding type), requiring a rather small amount of materials. When put into space they allow the placement of 1 unit of structure into it. In addition a few PI materials should be needed in order to put up a structure of size M upwards (having an automatic cost associated with tearing down and setting up again, not counting potential rigs which might be lacking, would encourage players to keep stuff in space and defend it instead of dodging every bit of danger). Ofc the amount should not go overboard and scale with the size and type of structure that is about to be anchored.
Besides that all the gantry would provide a couple of slots for "permanent rigs" defined by the structure placed into it. Those rigs are consumed together with the gantry, the structure and the additional materials once the final building process is initiated. After that the structure sits in space with its base attributes and the optional permanent modifiers from those extra rigs, ready to be fitted with regular mods/rigs.

This would encourage specialization of structures and discourage structure spam, since even the step of putting a structure in space would automatically incur costs that cannot be recovered. The additional gantry phase however would (or at least 'could in theory') prevent players from making big mistakes, since they have another step where they need to make a "yes I really DO want to do this"-decision (and it allows for sanity checks whether or not a planned combination of effects would even be possible in the first place in the current system, see below).

By splitting basic structures and their potential permanent bonuses into different sources, CCP would have more fine grained balancing tools. They can make 1 and only 1 base version of each structure type in every size the type is required and then instead of making faction or racial versions of the base structure, split and move those "faction features" into above mentioned permanent rigs or subs (like e.g. bonuses to certain types of guns or a more powerful reactor or fuel catalyst to save fuel, etc...). To prevent overpowered combinations some constraints should be placed, like e.g. associating those rigs with a type and restricting max number of rigs per type.
Ah, and I would put all really, really strong effects, especially strong system wide ones, into this kind of system.

Just a few of my thoughts to what I imagine the biggest and greatest change to eve since I started :>
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#388 - 2015-03-23 15:01:27 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Ytterbium
Justa Hunni wrote:
Nyctef wrote:


tl;dr being able to put together a small town of individual structures would make me feel more like I'm building a home rather than just renting someone else's


I really like the changes but I'm quoting above as I had a totally different understanding of what is being contemplated. Right now I can have my POS do almost anything I want it to do (within PG and CPU) but your new structures seem to be role dependent. Does this mean I'll have to have separate research, manufacturing and refining "arrays" within my WH system rather than a single or two POS with all the necessary current arrays (with all the extra fueling etc headaches that enforces)?


You could have the a single or two structures with what you need, but those will not be as effective as having them on the proper bonuses structures.

Example:


  • If you have enough fittings, you could have a reprocessing, research ME and TE service modules on a Assembly Array structure
  • However it will not be as effective as having the reprocessing module on the Drilling Platform, and the research ME and TE modules on the Research Laboratory.


Exact definition of "effective" is up to discussion at this point. I could be pure efficiency, reduced fitting costs, fuel costs, rig calibration costs etc...

EDIT: remember that rigs will be the main slots to provide specialization bonuses as well, and due to their limited nature, you will not be able to reach the same generalization you currently enjoy with a single Starbase indeed. As mentioned in the blog, we would like to allow you to specialize further in a specific field should you choose to.
Yroc Jannseen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#389 - 2015-03-23 15:02:08 UTC
Maybe consider a thread for discussions on the capture mechanic, as that seems to be a big part of the discussion, although that of course also depends on how newsov play testing shakes out.

Have you considered a combination of entosis and hotpoint/damage on a single structure? IE entosis once through a structures shields?
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#390 - 2015-03-23 15:02:55 UTC
What are the problems that CCP sees with rebating outposts/outpost upgrades when they're made useless? Is it simply who gets the compensation (the dropper or the current holder) or are there other issues of concern we should be thinking about?
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#391 - 2015-03-23 15:23:58 UTC
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Cervix Thumper wrote:
watching the twitch and reading this sounds kind of like a cash grab.

we have to purchase new material while the old become obsolete?

existing structures / purchases can't be upgraded or transitioned into the new system?

for those purchases that have already been made and not deployed.. players are S.O.L?

A transition period is nice but, all said and done, it seems like scrap the old and buy the new.


This was something missing from the blog but we discussed in our roundtable at Fanfest today. We will make sure you get some reasonable value back from your old structures and not just nerf them until they don't do anything. This includes the tower, modules and blueprints to build them.

We did a similar thing during the industry expansion.

Oh and for the wormholers, yes you will be able to anchor some (or maybe all of these structures). However there will be some activities / bonuses that remain tied to sovereignty. The exact details of this need to be discussed with the wormhole community to see what best fits their needs and play style.


You shouldn't do a reimbursement plan based on the supposed ISK value of structures like you did with the data interfaces that were removed from industry. We and probably a lot of other people were severely short-changed on the reimbursement values for those interfaces.

I would suggest a reimbursement of all the materials needed to actually construct the structures so all the planetary interaction derived materials and everything else in the case of outposts.

Another thought. It would be nice to have racial types kept for the POSes and outposts. Big smile


Re reimbursement: this is an interesting idea, will discuss it with the team.

Re racial types: the new structures wont be following the standard racial variants ie Caldari, Gallente etc

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones

zar dada
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
#392 - 2015-03-23 15:24:02 UTC
Sorry if these have been asked and answered already.

Will there be a limit to number of ships allowed to Moor on the new POS replacement structure?

Will there be a way to see the current grid while parked / docked at the structure?

What will the limitations for wspace?

Can I setup Clones and Markets in wspace?

Can my corporation prevent personal/out of corp structures in a system? Using some kind of module? Or observatory structure?

If we can do markets and personal storage in wspace, but the structure is owned /anchored by a corporation, will directors/CEO have total access to that storage? And the ability to cancel/claim market orders/contracts by other players at that station?

For the transition, will ISK for current POS mods be replaced? And to whom will the ISK be sent? The owner of the POS player or corp?

Can we have a wspace structure that identifies the system with out corp/alliance name/logo? Because we have a certain structure and or a certain module?
Volcan Roubartzan
Damage Goods
#393 - 2015-03-23 15:24:39 UTC
Instead of removing forcefields entirely, it would be nice to see them as a module that protects the undock of a starbase.

Harnessing wormholes as star gates with system effects worries me because currently wormholes are the best part of eve and their effects/transience is a big part of making this so. Also Entosis linking structures in a wormhole would wreak havoc on small wormhole corps which make up the majority of the population there. I'm excited about these structures but I think its important to tread more cautiously where the game play is currently not broken.

Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#394 - 2015-03-23 15:28:13 UTC
Do you envision several different types of structures on the same grid? Do you see the possibilities of overlapping concentric circles of guns?

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#395 - 2015-03-23 15:31:28 UTC
EX Winet wrote:

2 - There is really only one major benefit to Sov holding, reduced fuel bills. Will the new structures have this applied or did CCP just sneak it out without anyone actually being aware.



  • We could have Sov holding provide reduced fuel bills for service modules yes. Depends what we want to do with Sov, I need to talk about that one with Fozzieboy.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#396 - 2015-03-23 15:36:10 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:
2 things popped up because it was weird:

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/67008/1/Structure_ISIS5-01.png
No reinforcement on a medium sized building? Seems unfairly risky.

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/67008/1/Structure_ISIS5-02.png
No medium sized research lab? What happened to single player use of all roles?


High-level concept work made to illustrate how a structure tree could evolve between sizes. Not final or representative of final attributes.
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#397 - 2015-03-23 15:39:35 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
EX Winet wrote:

2 - There is really only one major benefit to Sov holding, reduced fuel bills. Will the new structures have this applied or did CCP just sneak it out without anyone actually being aware.



  • We could have Sov holding provide reduced fuel bills for service modules yes. Depends what we want to do with Sov, I need to talk about that one with Fozzieboy.

Are some structures going to be limited to sov, like outposts currently are?
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#398 - 2015-03-23 15:41:55 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:


1. We need to have a long think about Outpost + Outpost Upgrade reimbursement, particularly because they have such a long history of investment form multiple previous owners. If you have any ideas on how to do this fairly please share your thoughts.

2. We want some functionality and bonuses to be limited to sov holding space to incentivise holding yes. In particular we are thinking of having rigs which modify their bonus depending on where the structure is deployed.



why should someone who currently doesn't own something be reimbursed for it ?

if you give something to someone else (or have it taken by someone else) you really shouldn't be reaping the benefits anymore
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#399 - 2015-03-23 15:43:47 UTC
Since I started playing Eve in Quantum Rise, this has to be the most ambitious set of changes CCP has ever attempted. Good luck. After having read the blog I have a few questions and observations to bring up.

Outpost Rigs -

  • Will rigs be replacing outpost upgrades? Seems so.
  • Plz have sec status bonuses based on true sec, not just hi/lo/nul/w-space. This will generate granularity for bonuses and make better truesec space worth fighting over for the better effects on structure upgrades/rigs.


Assembly Arrays -

  • If Assy Arrays are player controlled, what does it matter if they have an NPC cost reduction?


Research Labs -

  • Datacore Spawning. Don't IHUBs already have an upgrade for this? Or are you removing IHUBS?


Market/Office Hubs -

  • Interbus shipping seems great. But it also seems like something that could be very easily gamed using alts or alt corps. I like the risk/reward balance there. It is trivial to shoot NPC haulers even in hisec so long as you don't mind the standings loss.


Observatories -

  • Detect cloakies? yes, plz.
  • I love the scalability and improved effects from using multiple observatories. Astronomers have been using this effect for many years to improve the resolution and information gathering capabilities of their telescopes. Make it so.
  • Modify wormhole spawning? Again, do not IHUB upgrades already do this or are IHUBs being removed?


Stargates -

  • What about Acceleration Gates?
  • Does this mean you will be completely removing Jump Bridges with no replacement?


Admin -

  • TCUs being removed and replaced?
  • A structure to change sec status could be abused badly, especially in border systems with sec status near to 0.45. Modifying this up or down could change a system from hisec to lo sec, or vice-versa. These structures should not be usable outside of nulsec.


Advertisements -

  • Monuments plz.


POS replacements-

  • The ability to set and change the scope of a structure (personal/corp/alliance/public) after deployment would be awesome. There is nothing worse than having to scoop a structure and redeploy it just to change the scope of use or ownership.


Fate of items stored in destroyed structures -

  • The wreck idea seems pretty useless if a player can only undock once. Unless they have a freighter, they will likely only get a few hundred meters of stuff and one ship out, guaranteeing an almost total loss every time. Huge risk with very little chance of recovery. Containers that spawn on different grids (otherwise the lag would be insane) seems much better in that regard. It will also allow for much more player interaction at later times.


Something completely different (Structure defense) -

  • Remove the ability to use sentry drones from ships and enable them on structures. Give structures enough bandwidth, drone bay volume, and sentry bonuses to use them. Is this feasible?
  • I'm more concerned that with only 8 high slots, structures will be severely lacking in fire-power. Sentry drones could supplement them nicely where they need it the most; against large ships with the potential to easily destroy them. This would also fix the issue with sentry drones completely screwing the entire combat meta. Two birds with one stone.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Oxide Ammar
#400 - 2015-03-23 15:45:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Oxide Ammar
CCP, what is the idea behind your insist of manning the POS guns to defend and not make like the current system we have right now ?
This is game guys why you we have to feel it is full time job game to defend ourselves by having corp members 24/7 online to be rdy to man the guns if we got attacked ? reasons ?

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.