These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: Back Into the Structure

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#361 - 2015-03-23 14:15:12 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


  1. Outpost and their upgrades / improvements is going to be tricky though due to them changing hands so often.


I dunno — seems pretty simple to me. Whoever owns the outpost at the time of the refund gets the money. :sun:

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#362 - 2015-03-23 14:15:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Edward Olmops
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Eduardo'o wrote:
Any chance for the veterans amongst us to move all stuff locked up and gathered over the years in multiple 0.0 outposts, to be moved to the closest low sec station? I got tons of stuff all over 0.0 and no chance to get to it anymore now. Many amongst us must be in this situation

PS: great stuff


Outpost destruction is a long time away still, and we will need to come up with some special case handling especially for inactive accounts. Ejected contents safed up in journal entries from destroyed Outposts with a 1 year timer before it expires might be one way for example.


Few thoughts:

How about copying the sleeper technology? (Sleeper caches)
In an emergency situation (explosion imminent!) a structure jettisons escape pods with the loot and those will be cloaked, nullified and everything and hide the loot somewhere in the system.

They could stop functioning over a period of time to enhance the explorer gameplay.
E.g. not EXACTLY 1 year after the outpost was destroyed something appears, but gradually as those pods run out of energy.
Then there would be some special exploration sites spawning and every time something is recovered from those sites, it will be removed from the loot table.
(potentially also if the site despawns without being scanned & hacked)
Previous owners can only find their remaining stuff through bookmarks that has NOT yet been stolen.

Addition:
There could be player-manufactured containers that are more durable and keep the stuff hidden for longer times. Cautious players could store their valuable assets in these containers.
Such containers could also address another problem.
If an outpost is destroyed and a player comes back to evacuate his stuff from the wreckage using a special bookmark...
I imagine he would typically find hundreds of thousands of m³.
Very unlikely he would be able to evacuate everything in one go.
Limited size containers and multiple bookmarks (possibly with the container name) would not have the problem. They could just work like the cans from PI launches nowadays.

In general I really like the idea.
Former battlefields would become special locations to fight over again after a while. They would be valued by explorers AND the spacescape would dynamically and gradually change back as loot is being removed.
Maybe players would specialize in this kind of lore and become historians in New Eden to keep track. :-D
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#363 - 2015-03-23 14:15:23 UTC
EX Winet wrote:
So i have two simple questions

1 - There has been alot of talk coming out of the round table with regards to replacement or reimbursement for Towers/mods/structures/BPC, however nothing has been said about Stations. Will stations be replaced via isk or the new structures. Or as it seems is being hinted but not outright said, will they just become obsolete and thus destroyable leaving alliances out of pocket?

2 - There is really only one major benefit to Sov holding, reduced fuel bills. Will the new structures have this applied or did CCP just sneak it out without anyone actually being aware.


1. We need to have a long think about Outpost + Outpost Upgrade reimbursement, particularly because they have such a long history of investment form multiple previous owners. If you have any ideas on how to do this fairly please share your thoughts.

2. We want some functionality and bonuses to be limited to sov holding space to incentivise holding yes. In particular we are thinking of having rigs which modify their bonus depending on where the structure is deployed.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
VolatileVoid
Viking Clan
#364 - 2015-03-23 14:15:59 UTC
Just a question.

Where will be the room for part time players with or within a corp?

With the current sov system and stations it is highly possible that your stuff is still accessible if you login next weekend.
With the new sov system and destructible big containers it is highly possible that your stuff isn't accessible next weekend and blown up the week after.
Therefore part time players can't have reasonable stuff in sov null anymore including any kind of industrial activity.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#365 - 2015-03-23 14:16:21 UTC
I know yall gotta iron out the details. I'm just saying iron faster because this stuff is awesome lol.
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#366 - 2015-03-23 14:17:23 UTC  |  Edited by: EvilweaselFinance
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

As mentioned by CCP Nullarbor somewhere in this thread, we need to plan for proper reimbursement for existing Starbase structures, blueprints and various assets tied to the stuff we already have. Outpost and their upgrades / improvements is going to be tricky though due to them changing hands so often.

I don't think it will be tricky: refund the owner at the time the upgrades are made useless. When we upgrade an outpost, we take the risk that someone will come and take it from us. We have to accept that risk in order to do it, so there's no reason we would need to be compensated for upgrades that someone else took away from us. However, those people now put in considerable effort to secure their new outpost: they fought to take it and as a result of their efforts secured an upgraded outpost. If that outpost is suddenly made useless (or the upgrades are suddenly made useless), it's that party that should be compensated, not the original builder. If you compensate the original builder, they get a windfall they'd never have gotten without the change, while the conqueror loses out.

My feeling is that the owning corporation should be rebated the cost of the upgrades+fillings - either in kind (the new replacement structure in a station somewhere) or more likely just the isk cost, directly to the owning corp's wallet. The isk method makes everything simpler and an assurance that something like this would happen lets us continue to at least consider upgrades - without that, the chance to install new upgrades is essentially taken out of the game early.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#367 - 2015-03-23 14:18:02 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
EX Winet wrote:
So i have two simple questions

1 - There has been alot of talk coming out of the round table with regards to replacement or reimbursement for Towers/mods/structures/BPC, however nothing has been said about Stations. Will stations be replaced via isk or the new structures. Or as it seems is being hinted but not outright said, will they just become obsolete and thus destroyable leaving alliances out of pocket?

2 - There is really only one major benefit to Sov holding, reduced fuel bills. Will the new structures have this applied or did CCP just sneak it out without anyone actually being aware.


1. We need to have a long think about Outpost + Outpost Upgrade reimbursement, particularly because they have such a long history of investment form multiple previous owners. If you have any ideas on how to do this fairly please share your thoughts.

2. We want some functionality and bonuses to be limited to sov holding space to incentivise holding yes. In particular we are thinking of having rigs which modify their bonus depending on where the structure is deployed.


I am going to assume you don't track who upgraded a station then?

If not, the only fair thing is to reimburse the current holder. Which might kick off some hilarious wars prepatch.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#368 - 2015-03-23 14:18:31 UTC
Samsara Toldya wrote:

No racial towers - no racial fuel?



  • Racial fuel will most likely be spread among the various structures, or merged into one, not sure yet. Up to discussion, like everything else.
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#369 - 2015-03-23 14:19:09 UTC
VolatileVoid wrote:
Just a question.

Where will be the room for part time players with or within a corp?

With the current sov system and stations it is highly possible that your stuff is still accessible if you login next weekend.
With the new sov system and destructible big containers it is highly possible that your stuff isn't accessible next weekend and blown up the week after.
Therefore part time players can't have reasonable stuff in sov null anymore including any kind of industrial activity.


That is the reason for the proposed ejection mechanics which will keep your personal assets safe for a period of time for you to collect.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#370 - 2015-03-23 14:20:39 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Samsara Toldya wrote:

No racial towers - no racial fuel?



  • Racial fuel will most likely be spread among the various structures, or merged into one, not sure yet. Up to discussion, like everything else.


Merge it into one. This is already something that should be done with compressed ore too. Eliminate needless complexity.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#371 - 2015-03-23 14:20:56 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Fuel blocks will most likely be the main resource for service modules to operate. No longer need Strontium for Reinforced period (or whatever capture system we end up with). Also no longer need fuel blocks just to keep the structure in space, if all goes according to plan. Bit early to say so far.

This is a very minor point but if you eliminate stront for starbases, you've got to do something with it - it's already basically junk. Either rebalance ice asteroids to have far less, or add in something that eats stront.
Kynric
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#372 - 2015-03-23 14:22:34 UTC
What is the plan wit regard to wspace? In particular will we be allowed to have "L" structures? What about "XL" structures? Building a sandcastle could be fun.
Idgarad
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#373 - 2015-03-23 14:22:56 UTC
Simple solution for the "structure destroyed, what to do with everyones ****" solution. Throw it into impound and charge a per m3 free to get it out of impound with the first 50,000m3 free of charge (or whatever m3 value is appropriate). They can go to any station and get their stuff but charge a fee to prevent creative item transferring over a distance. Moored ships fair game.

To further temper the impound solution have it transfer only Xm3 per hour. Someone with 300,000,000m3 of cargo in a station might have to pay (say for argument and easy math 10isk per m3) would fork over 3,000,000,000 isk to get it all out but only 1,000,000m3 per hour so you'd be looking at 3000 hours (128 days) to get it all out of impound. (Obviously tweak those numbers to something appropriate).

It prevents someone loading up a crap ton of capitals and blowing their own POS up to quick move stuff around while giving people the ability to get their loot from a station that got whacked while there were gone.

Think of it as Interbus handling the salvaging of the massive wrecks. Hell let those on the killmail get a % cut of the impound fee as compensation.

Moored ships I would assume are normal fair game but this seems a simple, lightweight solution and compromise. Nothing worse then someone who only plays say in the winter, and comes back after 4 months.
Noriko Mai
#374 - 2015-03-23 14:23:33 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
VolatileVoid wrote:
Just a question.

Where will be the room for part time players with or within a corp?

With the current sov system and stations it is highly possible that your stuff is still accessible if you login next weekend.
With the new sov system and destructible big containers it is highly possible that your stuff isn't accessible next weekend and blown up the week after.
Therefore part time players can't have reasonable stuff in sov null anymore including any kind of industrial activity.


That is the reason for the proposed ejection mechanics which will keep your personal assets safe for a period of time for you to collect.

But wouldn't this require a whole freighter fleet per member? Everyone would grab highest value, lowest volume items and leave.

"Meh.." - Albert Einstein
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#375 - 2015-03-23 14:28:25 UTC
Aiwha wrote:
One thing that I would like to see is overview availability of structures BASED ON STANDINGS. As in, you can warp to a structure without having to scan it down or get a bookmark if its configured to allow you based on being in a corp/alliance or having standings.
If you DONT have standings to see it from anywhere in system, you've gotta probe that **** down yourself or get a bookmark.
AN EXAMPLE: I decide I want a base of operations for just me. I anchor a personal large "station thing" or whatever, and set it to personal use, and use personal standings to decide who can access it. Since I only have my alts set to personal +10, this new structure shows up on all their overviews anywhere they are in system, and lets them warp to, dock, moor supers/caps, and access everything in and on it. Nobody else in my alliance, corporation, or any other randoms can see this structure if they aren't on grid or running combat probes.
That's the vision I'm seeing. I want that. Give that.


An interesting idea, thanks for that. We are considering to have some of the structures visible by default on the overview, especially if they take over Outpost role (so most likely the XL structures) but this has an intriguing take on it.
Miss Iniquitous
Razing Demolitions
#376 - 2015-03-23 14:31:00 UTC
Hello, I manage 6 POS Moon Mining, running Reactions and manufacturing T2 Components all mixed together across the 6 POS in low sec.

Will I still be able to run the same or similar operation on these structures after the change?

It took me many months to acquire these moons and figure out the reaction system.

Due to the above I am anxious about the transition period.

I am certainly not looking forward to being told to unanchor all of this to replace with the new structures and mods only to continue my industry.

Will CCP replace my anchored reaction chain structures with the new ones or will I as feared have to do this myself all over again?

I definitely need more information on the transition in order to be sufficiently prepared for this. I am going to have a lot of EVE chores to do, I am not excited about this!

I am excited about these changes though!!
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#377 - 2015-03-23 14:32:51 UTC
Mnemonyss wrote:
If the new structures are fittable, will they also have drone bays and allow for drones to be deployed when under attack?


We want them to be like ships, so if there is good gameplay behind it, there is no reason why they shouldn't use drones, or fighter / fighter-bombers at the largest sizes. We do not like gun automation though, so it's likely those will have to be manually controlled if they ever make it in, again, like ship drones.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#378 - 2015-03-23 14:33:39 UTC
Kel'Taran wrote:
So with the Large size structures (New POS) only being attackable via entosis (look at the pics in the blog attack method all says entosis) you have gone and taken away the primary use for dreads once new sov goes into effect and carriers have no more repping use either.



That's something that was also brought up during the Fanfest structure round table which needs to be taken care of, yes.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#379 - 2015-03-23 14:41:13 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Mnemonyss wrote:
If the new structures are fittable, will they also have drone bays and allow for drones to be deployed when under attack?


We want them to be like ships, so if there is good gameplay behind it, there is no reason why they shouldn't use drones, or fighter / fighter-bombers at the largest sizes. We do not like gun automation though, so it's likely those will have to be manually controlled if they ever make it in, again, like ship drones.

Valkyrie tie-in detected. :haw:

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Elana Apgar
Allspark Industries
#380 - 2015-03-23 14:45:28 UTC
Idgarad wrote:
Simple solution for the "structure destroyed, what to do with everyones ****" solution. Throw it into impound and charge a per m3 free to get it out of impound with the first 50,000m3 free of charge (or whatever m3 value is appropriate). They can go to any station and get their stuff but charge a fee to prevent creative item transferring over a distance. Moored ships fair game.

To further temper the impound solution have it transfer only Xm3 per hour. Someone with 300,000,000m3 of cargo in a station might have to pay (say for argument and easy math 10isk per m3) would fork over 3,000,000,000 isk to get it all out but only 1,000,000m3 per hour so you'd be looking at 3000 hours (128 days) to get it all out of impound. (Obviously tweak those numbers to something appropriate).

It prevents someone loading up a crap ton of capitals and blowing their own POS up to quick move stuff around while giving people the ability to get their loot from a station that got whacked while there were gone.

Think of it as Interbus handling the salvaging of the massive wrecks. Hell let those on the killmail get a % cut of the impound fee as compensation.

Moored ships I would assume are normal fair game but this seems a simple, lightweight solution and compromise. Nothing worse then someone who only plays say in the winter, and comes back after 4 months.


I like this idea