These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123
 

Does alignment affect the time into warp?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#41 - 2015-03-20 08:42:24 UTC
Cecilla Rui wrote:

But what if you take a ship which is alligned to the warp to location with 0 m/s. It will take the time to get to 3/4 of the maxspeed and then the ship will get into warp.

If the ship's speed is actually zero (not rounded to zero) then its vector has zero magnitude and is therefore a point. A point has no direction and therefore the ship is not aligned to anything (or is equally aligned to everything).

So no, so-called "passive align" (where a ship is graphically pointed at a warpable but at a full stop) has no benefit at all.
BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
#42 - 2015-03-20 14:39:20 UTC
Rowells wrote:

For example:
My rifter is standing still facing the opposite direction for warp. It has the exact same align time as a rifter facing the proper direction.
If my rifter is moving at any velocity away from the warp angle, the time to warp increases.


Honestly, the term "align time" should probably change to "warp calculation time" or something similar, as the current term just causes confusion.

Primary Test Subject • SmackTalker Elite
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#43 - 2015-03-20 15:56:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Aralyn Cormallen
Drez Arthie wrote:
Anhenka wrote:

If the formula you stated earlier does not fit the situations I have explained, then you are not using the right model to try and explain it.


You're right, the model of "75% max velocity in the direction of warp" does not fit what actually happens in the game. There must be another model under the hood.


The obvious "other model" is "and not moving faster in another direction".

It's probably a hard thing to get as a subcap pilot, since ships warp pretty quickly regardless of which way they are facing, you don't see the extremes. The mechanics become obvious once you start dealing with capital ships. Yesterday, my Aeon was bumped on jump-in by an alliance mate, such that my ship was skating at about 45 degrees from the direction I wanted to go at 8-10 times my normal max velocity.

Had I just pressed warp, in all likelihood my ship would have cruised for several minutes, as it tried to "right" my angle of velocity (despite, due to my high speed, under your simplistic model, I probably had plenty of velocity in the "right" direction, my vector was wrong, so I wasn't going anywhere). Believe me, this can take forever in these fat-assed ships; I've tried it on smaller bumps, and the bitches just wont warp if momentum is carrying them in even a shallow angle off your warp direction. Instead, I had to take time cancelling my velocity (supercap pilots often carry an MWD for this purpose, and activate it while giving a move order directly counter to the bump direction in order to reduce speed faster than just a stop command does). Once you have shrugged off the excess momentum, you can then attempt to warp.
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#44 - 2015-03-20 15:58:06 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
direction within a few '3D degrees' (whatever that is) of the destination

See steradian

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
Justin Zaine
#45 - 2015-03-22 00:10:36 UTC
Drez Arthie wrote:
Justin Zaine wrote:
I can't count the number of times i've killed wartarget industrials because someone in their corp told them "If you mine aligned, you'll be safe hurr durr."


"aligned" means your last command was "align to", and you have reached the minimum speed to enter warp (see earlier tedious argument about what direction you should be moving). Stopping your ship means you are no longer aligned. It's even more obvious if your destination is up or down, since our ships think they are submarines and settle into an imaginary horizontal position, which does not point toward up or down destinations.

Then again, you can mine while aligned for warp, but to do it continuously requires going back and forth between destinations in opposite directions from the mining site. It makes mining mildly more interesting to keep that up.


Yes, I know that.

The problem is that most people don't explain the mechanic properly to noobs and/or believe that "Keeping your ships pointed in the direction you're warping is enough and will help you get out faster..."

Obviously this is a common misconception.

Hell, i've even had arguments about this on corp comms before with pvp'ers who've had years of experience.

He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.

He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.
Trevor Dalech
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#46 - 2015-03-22 05:05:17 UTC
Drez Arthie wrote:
One would think that you warp when the velocity component in the intended direction of travel reaches the required fraction of max speed (dot product of your velocity vector with unit vector pointing to warp destination). Maybe that is too physics-y though, who knows what the code actually does.


Combined with an afterburner or mwd, this would allow some very strange warps.

Imagine I'm moving with mwd at a 60 degree angle to my intended warp target. I shut off my mwd, I'm now moving at over twice my max velocity and the component of my velocity vector in the direction of my warp target is over 75% max, so I make an instant 60 degree turn and warp.

This is of course not the case, there is also a requirement that your direction of travel lies within 5 degrees of the direction of your warp target.
Nikolai Lachance
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2015-03-22 05:36:11 UTC
It is correct that the direction your ship model appears to be facing is purely cosmetic. The direction your ship's apparent thrusters are facing is ultimately meaningless. Your ship can apply a thrust force in any direction at a moment's notice.

To enter warp, the component of your ship's velocity that is moving directly toward your warp destination must be at least 75% of your ship's current maximum speed, and your velocity vector must point within about 8.1 degrees of that direction (it is likely to be the arccosine of 0.99).

I developed graphs that show what your align time would be based on the angle your current velocity vector is away from your destination, and what percentage of your max speed that you're moving. The graphs can be viewed here: http://imgur.com/a/jkRCq

The align time multiplier is what you multiply by your ship's mass in kilotons and then by your ship's inertia modifier to get actual align time in seconds.

The graphs show how align time is the same regardless of what direction you're pointing if you have 0 speed. It also shows that your worst case align when moving at 100% speed is if you're moving 98.1 degrees relative to your destination, with moving directly away from it being a very close second. The source of that local minimum between the two is where it starts to take longer to accelerate to 75% of your max toward the destination than it does to turn your ship within 8.1 degrees of it.

The second graph shows that, in some cases, it can actually make your align take longer if you shut off your afterburner just as you start to align to a target. Generally prop mods make you less agile while online due to their mass increase, thus making them bad for your align times. However, having a lot of excess speed as a result of turning one off is also bad for alignment, as it can take much longer to turn toward the destination, or move your speed where it needs to be. This effect is much more pronounced for MWDs since they add so much more speed. Generally speaking, if you're flying with an MWD on and you need to warp to something right now, you're better off leaving it on while you align.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#48 - 2015-03-22 06:03:36 UTC
Just gonna throw this in...


There are two requirements for warp:

- being aligned (see: your velocity vector is pointing) within a few degrees of your intended destination.

- your ship speed has to be within 75% to ~125% of max speed.


This means:

- you can warp with a little extra speed (more than your max velocity allows)... only so much.
Example: your frigate has a max speed of 500 m/sec... it is flying at 1000 m/sec... it will not warp until its speed is ~625 m/sec (even if its velocity vector is pointing in the right direction).

- you can manipulate the variables to allow for "instawarping"
Examples: freighter webbing trick, cloak-MWD trick, insta-undocks.



Also... anything you see on your end (client end) is PURELY graphical. The server is doing all the calculations and the client is merely sending-receiving inputs and trying to keep up.

How did you Veterans start?
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#49 - 2015-03-22 06:58:53 UTC
I'm pretty sure you can warp just fine at much higher than 125% max speed.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2015-03-22 08:47:15 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
I'm pretty sure you can warp just fine at much higher than 125% max speed.
Yes, just tested it.

Aligned, turned on MWD, turned off MWD, waited for speed to drop a little to confirm MWD off, hit warp --> warped instantly, even though the last speed shown on the gauge was around 300% of max base speed.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Previous page123