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why do players stay in npc corps?

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Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#541 - 2015-03-20 03:54:13 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:
Beats me why players who are NOT members of NPC corporations post in this thread.

Because it's the only game I personally play, so I have as much stake in this issue as anyone else.

You don't need to be in an NPC Corp (I have alts in NPC Corps, so I guess I could post with those) to be interested in the topic.



My point is to let the NPC members post their reasoning not divert the thread into a debate over wardecs. Because, at least for me, the major motive is lack of social hierarchies.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#542 - 2015-03-20 03:54:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Basil Pupkin
Eli Stan wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
I'm not being sarcastic, because what I said is entirely true. You just proved it.
Tell me, where would you be without those "some very good pilots", and you can go and keep believing your little ship mattered anything more than a living bait with the hook stuffed up your rear.


You said "pvp is restricted and inaccessible without 105 mil SP god toon." Yet I was PvPing with less than a million SP. And if you think an Atron and Incursus is only good for bait, you don't understand small-gang PvP very well.



I don't think an Atron and Incursus are only good for bait.
I say that anyone below a few years worth of SP in ANY SHIP is only good for a bait. Which is true.
You were a bait, the worm on the hook, who felt like he matters, because the fisherman won't catch the fish without him.
I won't ask if you liked the hook up there, just don't deny the obvious.

Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
I never said that it was irrelevant, nor of no consequence, only that banding together to overcome it most definitely does work, within reason. Given the nature of SP's function within the game, to say that it's irrelevant takes a special kind of willful ignorance.
As an extreme example of something that wouldn't work: 255 day one newbies in rookie ships, attacking a maxed SP piloted Nyx.
However, give them all about four months of training, and something a bit less ridiculous shipwise (at least a few being dictors/hictors), and you've got a dead super.
This obviously assumes no outside interference, and yes, I know it's a ridiculous (though not impossible) scenario.


4 months with up to 2500 SP/hour would give up to 7 million SP.
255 people with 7 million SP is 1785 million SP.
This creates exactly what I were speaking about - an order of magnitude difference between their total SP and 105-million-ish Nyx owner SP, which is necessary to break the SP wall against the Nyx owner SP. So it's only natural that they win.
This is a purely hypothetical, but yet another point for me.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#543 - 2015-03-20 03:55:56 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
CCP Rise alluded to that at Fanfest today either in his short presentation on the NPE, or in the game design panel; where he mentioned, as he has before, that CCP see a strong relationship between players social engagement and their likelihood to remain in the game. Part of the goal with the NPE changes I think is to try to increase social contact as early as possible.

Where the issue of the NPC Corps fits into that is that there is no structure in an NPC Corp that itself encourages social interaction in the same way that player Corps do.

It doesn't mean that NPC Corps have to be bad at social interation (eg. CAS), but that if you can encourage people to move into player run Corps, you automatically put them in an environment that by design is far more structured around social interaction.

Definitely I think, where veterans are involved in those Corps, the new players have a better chance of learning good skills, as opposed to Corps of new players; which can also be a symptom of areas of play within NPC Corps (eg. new players see mostly other new players in starter systems so it's likely that any social interaction will be with other new players rather than veterans).

I really need to watch that but likely won't have a chance till the weekend.

Your description though sounds like what we've had to date, a lot of talk involving goals, but no concrete path to make them a reality. Even talking about the difference between player corps and NPC corps doesn't address the main issues I have.

New players have to start somewhere, and that should ideally be somewhere neutral rather than pushing new players to established metagame sides or behavioral preferences. Since player corps largely can't be that place they pretty much have to start out in an NPC neutral environment.

But most importantly, it still doesn't ensure a positive experience for new players in player corps because there are terrible player corps out there and genuine new players are going to have issues determining those from the good ones. Worse, the NPE still doesn't put you in contact with veterans with an interest in newbies, but still relies on them to reach out and seek social groups on their own initiative.

The latter concern is where I believe the issue lies. I doubt CCP's ability to resolve this because only players can in all reality, and nothing is stopping them from doing it now. No vet is banned from putting a new character in an NPC corp and engaging there. Why this only happens in one corp I don't know. How it will change without assigning players to corps and can be done without CCP effectively endorsing certain corps in ways that I would think inappropriate I don't know.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#544 - 2015-03-20 04:03:05 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

New players have to start somewhere, and that should ideally be somewhere neutral rather than pushing new players to established metagame sides or behavioral preferences.


I agree.

Problem is, right now it's overwhelmingly pushing people to PvE, solitary, boredom oriented playstyles. And, since the majority of the NPC corps they can end up in do nothing to change that, their subscription dies of boredom.

That has to change. You can't just handwave it away by saying "well CCP should fix the NPE", because NPC corps are a fundamental part of the NPE.


Quote:

But most importantly, it still doesn't ensure a positive experience for new players in player corps because there are terrible player corps out there and genuine new players are going to have issues determining those from the good ones.


Yeah, which is why we should be pushing to empower people to be able to destroy such corps. You know, have something to fight for that can engage new players in the game, instead of making them mine for three months until they quit.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#545 - 2015-03-20 04:03:40 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

This suggests the solution is in player hands via veteran engagement.


Quite the opposite.

It suggests that thus far, the only mitigating factor in favor of NPC corps is completely player created and player driven.

That is just how badly CCP has failed in this regard.

That's the same thing I said save a twist to make NPC corps a pejorative again. Though despite your assertion you haven't presented any reason for that twist. As stated, new players have to go somewhere and if veterans decide to not be there CCP can't fail as success was never an option WE provided them.
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#546 - 2015-03-20 04:04:59 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

New players have to start somewhere, and that should ideally be somewhere neutral rather than pushing new players to established metagame sides or behavioral preferences.


I agree.

Problem is, right now it's overwhelmingly pushing people to PvE, solitary, boredom oriented playstyles. And, since the majority of the NPC corps they can end up in do nothing to change that, their subscription dies of boredom.

That has to change. You can't just handwave it away by saying "well CCP should fix the NPE", because NPC corps are a fundamental part of the NPE.


Quote:

But most importantly, it still doesn't ensure a positive experience for new players in player corps because there are terrible player corps out there and genuine new players are going to have issues determining those from the good ones.


Yeah, which is why we should be pushing to empower people to be able to destroy such corps. You know, have something to fight for that can engage new players in the game, instead of making them mine for three months until they quit.


The only overwhelmingly boring thing in eve is combat pvp. Throwing anyone below 105 million SP into it will make him quit not in 3 months, but instantly.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#547 - 2015-03-20 04:06:09 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:

*sneezing noise


Gesundheit.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#548 - 2015-03-20 04:11:15 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:
My point is to let the NPC members post their reasoning not divert the thread into a debate over wardecs. Because, at least for me, the major motive is lack of social hierarchies.

Ok. Perhaps it's worth just saying what you really mean up front.

What Corp someone is in is irrelevant to the topic of the thread because anyone, irrespective of who their main is, could post on an NPC Corp alt. the ideas would be no different.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#549 - 2015-03-20 04:12:14 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

New players have to start somewhere, and that should ideally be somewhere neutral rather than pushing new players to established metagame sides or behavioral preferences.


I agree.

Problem is, right now it's overwhelmingly pushing people to PvE, solitary, boredom oriented playstyles. And, since the majority of the NPC corps they can end up in do nothing to change that, their subscription dies of boredom.

That has to change. You can't just handwave it away by saying "well CCP should fix the NPE", because NPC corps are a fundamental part of the NPE.


Quote:

But most importantly, it still doesn't ensure a positive experience for new players in player corps because there are terrible player corps out there and genuine new players are going to have issues determining those from the good ones.


Yeah, which is why we should be pushing to empower people to be able to destroy such corps. You know, have something to fight for that can engage new players in the game, instead of making them mine for three months until they quit.

Actually, I thought I was pretty clearly on the path that CCP can't fix most of the NPE. If the NPE needs social interaction to work, it needs people to be social with and since not much is preventing that, what more can CCP do? Really i'd say the best move would be letting vets chose an NPC corp so that those with interest in helping new players can join those groups that are currently closed to them.

You have presented another contradiction though. Through the destruction of lesser social groups do you think retention will be helped or hurt? Bear in mind that players can and (some) do act in hostile manners to the limits that the rules allow. Creating scenarios designed to destroy a group and it's member without a way out is just asking for a trap scenario to expand the current dock up and wait it out response to wardecs. That's not good for retention either. So do we want a revolving door or growth?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#550 - 2015-03-20 04:13:06 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
As stated, new players have to go somewhere and if veterans decide to not be there CCP can't fail as success was never an option WE provided them.


New players do have to go somewhere, exactly.

So why does that place have to be this sedentary, PvE focused group, every single time for every new player? Why is it that if you join this game to do something besides peck at rocks all goddamn day, you have to ask the EVE subreddit how to do it?

That's not our fault as players. It's CCP's fault for allowing this stagnation, for not taking an axe to this sacred cow a long time ago.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#551 - 2015-03-20 04:15:53 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
The only overwhelmingly boring thing in eve is combat pvp. Throwing anyone below 105 million SP into it will make him quit not in 3 months, but instantly.

Nah. I've been pvping since day 6, while still in an NPC Corp and with 28 million SP now I'm doing ok. Certainly having fun and have been since I started solo.

But none of this really has much to do with the topic. It's just a pointless distraction.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#552 - 2015-03-20 04:19:22 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Actually, I thought I was pretty clearly on the path that CCP can't fix most of the NPE. If the NPE needs social interaction to work, it needs people to be social with and since not much is preventing that, what more can CCP do?


The way NPC corps work right now is a large factor in anti social behavior. They, along with the NPE, need to be reworked to offer a more social experience with more potential for conflict and in-space player interaction, not just jawing on in the shared chat channel.


Quote:

You have presented another contradiction though. Through the destruction of lesser social groups do you think retention will be helped or hurt?


Helped. My ideal solution would likely result in the dissolution of about 50% of the currently existing corps in highsec.

Quote:

Creating scenarios designed to destroy a group and it's member without a way out


Who said anything about no way out?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#553 - 2015-03-20 04:22:02 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
As stated, new players have to go somewhere and if veterans decide to not be there CCP can't fail as success was never an option WE provided them.


New players do have to go somewhere, exactly.

So why does that place have to be this sedentary, PvE focused group, every single time for every new player? Why is it that if you join this game to do something besides peck at rocks all goddamn day, you have to ask the EVE subreddit how to do it?

That's not our fault as players. It's CCP's fault for allowing this stagnation, for not taking an axe to this sacred cow a long time ago.

Actually yes, it is the fault of players if you subscribe to the logic that social interaction drives retention. I believe the NPE can't be a substitute for that interaction as no matter how well it conveys the mechanics of the game that doesn't actually create that social component. Do you disagree

It seems you do agree that existing social groups shouldn't get free members. That means we have to have a new player bin of sorts and that bin WILL turn into the current NPC corps without fail unless someone outside of CCP curates it into what it should be.
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#554 - 2015-03-20 04:23:16 UTC
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
Eli Stan wrote:
I still don't see how subjecting the 40%ers to war decs (assuming they are actually in NPC corps) will increase the retention of those players. Question I still think they'll simply quit earlier. Only by introducing them to social aspects of play during the NPE will they have a chance of becoming long-term players. (At least, that's what happened with me, an MMO newbie in addition to an EVE newbie, by exposure to CAS's social aspects.)

Also note something I said earlier. I pointed out CAS very specifically, as being about the only new player NPC corp that is worth a damn. Assuming that you had no idea what you were doing when you selected your starting school, you got lucky, nothing more. If you'd have picked say, Hedion University, you may well just be another early Eve burnout who quit out of sheer boredom after a couple of weeks or months.


That's very true. I wouldn't say it was PURE luck that I ended up in a socially active NPC corp - I picked Gallente and CAS based off the descriptions because they fit my personality, and assuming the other CAS players did as well, it stands to reason I'd find a like-minded group I fit in with, in particular a group that's interested in helping newbies out - but yeah, if I had created Eli in some other NPC corp, I likely would have been in the 40%, possibly even the 50%. Highly unlikely I would have bothered past a few months. And that would be true even if I had been moved out of my starter corp by whatever means - I would have been a quitting one-man-corp instead of a quitting Heidion University grad, for example.

Which just furthers my conviction that the 40% getting bored and leaving isn't because of NPC corps, and isn't because of the lack of wardecs.

It is, in my mind, a combination of a) those players simply not being interested in social play due to their personalities, with which nothing can be done, and b) players entering the game on their own, like I did, not being directed towards social play by the NPE and the veteran players. (A singular example of which is that "I quit" thread I linked here a while back.)

Getting newbies out of NPC corps won't increase retention, and subjecting newbies to war decs won't increase retention either. IMO YMMV yadda yadda.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#555 - 2015-03-20 04:27:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Actually, I thought I was pretty clearly on the path that CCP can't fix most of the NPE. If the NPE needs social interaction to work, it needs people to be social with and since not much is preventing that, what more can CCP do?


The way NPC corps work right now is a large factor in anti social behavior. They, along with the NPE, need to be reworked to offer a more social experience with more potential for conflict and in-space player interaction, not just jawing on in the shared chat channel.


Quote:

You have presented another contradiction though. Through the destruction of lesser social groups do you think retention will be helped or hurt?


Helped. My ideal solution would likely result in the dissolution of about 50% of the currently existing corps in highsec.

Quote:

Creating scenarios designed to destroy a group and it's member without a way out


Who said anything about no way out?

So you think destroying current social ties will help and believe you can do so without removing the ease of escape? If you have an idea please propose it.

Also, since NPC corps don't actually push you in ANY direction, how are they in particular contributing to what you are seeing? and how should they offer a greater social experience themselves? How can they encourage in space interaction?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#556 - 2015-03-20 04:29:50 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Actually yes, it is the fault of players if you subscribe to the logic that social interaction drives retention.



Social interaction does drive retention.

And they're being set up for failure because of the way NPC corps work right now, and because the tutorials push people into PvE.

Those two things combined are a death sentence for subscriptions, even CCP acknowledges this.


Quote:

It seems you do agree that existing social groups shouldn't get free members.


I certainly don't think that new players should start in EVE Uni, if that's what you mean. But that does not preclude us from improving upon the deeply flawed current rules of NPC corps.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#557 - 2015-03-20 04:31:26 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

So you think destroying current social ties will help and believe you can do so without removing the ease of escape? If you have an idea please propose it.


First of all, you already acknowledged that such corps are not social ties. They're just toxic newbie tax farms.

Secondly, yes, I believe that making highsec corps something worth fighting for, instead of a glorified chat channel, is the way forward for improved social interaction and thereby retention.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#558 - 2015-03-20 04:37:19 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Actually yes, it is the fault of players if you subscribe to the logic that social interaction drives retention.


Social interaction does drive retention.

And they're being set up for failure because of the way NPC corps work right now, and because the tutorials push people into PvE.

Those two things combined are a death sentence for subscriptions, even CCP acknowledges this.


Quote:

It seems you do agree that existing social groups shouldn't get free members.


I certainly don't think that new players should start in EVE Uni, if that's what you mean. But that does not preclude us from improving upon the deeply flawed current rules of NPC corps.

I want you to very explicitly describe the process you are claiming happens and the attributes of an NPC corp specifically that drive that process.

You stated the NPE pushes people into PvE, which I can agree with, but that says nothing of NPC corps. The NPE could be gutted without touching the NPC corps. So how do they, the corps, specifically feed into this. I need to know how that works, not just what you claim the ends are, to make sense of this.
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#559 - 2015-03-20 04:41:40 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
I don't think an Atron and Incursus are only good for bait.
I say that anyone below a few years worth of SP in ANY SHIP is only good for a bait. Which is true.
You were a bait, the worm on the hook, who felt like he matters, because the fisherman won't catch the fish without him.
I won't ask if you liked the hook up there, just don't deny the obvious.


Heehee. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be mean, but your concept of the situation is so far removed from reality that I can't help but laugh. :) So here's the deal; those pilots on my first two killmail... I still fly with many of them a year later. I know them, trust them, enjoy flying with them, even know some of their RL tidbits. Despite my excessive lack of understanding of many of the aspects of EVE PvP at the time, I know now I was NOT bait, because I know how this fleet operates. I wouldn't consider myself a veteran at this point, but now I am the (somewhat) experienced player welcoming in the sub-mil newbies into fleet and helping show them the ropes. And they aren't bait either - they are important aspects of our small-gang warfare.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#560 - 2015-03-20 04:42:34 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

I want you to very explicitly describe the process you are claiming happens and the attributes of an NPC corp specifically that drive that process.

You stated the NPE pushes people into PvE, which I can agree with, but that says nothing of NPC corps. The NPE could be gutted without touching the NPC corps. So how do they, the corps, specifically feed into this. I need to know how that works, not just what you claim the ends are, to make sense of this.


Are you serious?

Okay, laid out for you:

NPC corps are immune to wars.

Therefore, they attract people who do not want to engage in any PvP or player interaction in general.

These people, whose whole reason for being in an NPC corp is to avoid player interaction, are the first people that newbies see, the first group they get to interact with.

Get it yet?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.