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why do players stay in npc corps?

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beakerax
Pator Tech School
#521 - 2015-03-20 02:27:42 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I would argue that they are not separate subjects. They're very closely tied in with one another, as the defining features of wardecs and NPC corps relate to each other, respectively.

The defining feature of NPC corps from the perspective of game mechanics may be that they are immune to wardecs, but for some the appeal of an NPC corp is that, from a social perspective, they are structureless. I'm personally resistant to the idea of trying to deal with one issue without accomodating for the other.
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#522 - 2015-03-20 02:32:14 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Banding together doesn't work, because eve combat pvp is restricted and inaccessible without 105 mil SP god toon.


I.... I hope you're being sarcastic? I can't tell.

Seven days after starting, I had my first PvP action in null - resulting in the loss of my ship, an Atron. I probably had less than a million SP at that point. 13 minutes later, in my Incursus, I was on my first killmail, a Vagabond. A minute after that, a second killmail, also a Vagabond. Then after another 15 minutes, I lost the Incursus.

It was a glorious day.

Yes, I was flying with some very good pilots, but my little ships mattered.
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#523 - 2015-03-20 02:37:22 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
100% of space is mine to go pew pew in, because EVE Online is a PvP game.

Quoted to be wrong by CCP Seagull herself in today's fanfest stream.
But who is CCP Seagull to listen to for a beautiful person like you, right?


Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Entirely false. I left of my own accord, with good relations with my former alliance.

Ask them if you don't believe me. Regardless, cease your lies.

Yeah, yeah, buddy, you just went from bad to worse because you liked worse.
I mean, seriously, who are you trying to trick? Just be honest and we all will be sorry for that bootmark on your rear, because everyone knows you don't join CODE if you're good for anything other than F1 monkeyism against a gunless target.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#524 - 2015-03-20 02:39:02 UTC
I still don't see how subjecting the 40%ers to war decs (assuming they are actually in NPC corps) will increase the retention of those players. Question I still think they'll simply quit earlier. Only by introducing them to social aspects of play during the NPE will they have a chance of becoming long-term players. (At least, that's what happened with me, an MMO newbie in addition to an EVE newbie, by exposure to CAS's social aspects.)
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#525 - 2015-03-20 02:39:49 UTC
Eli Stan wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Banding together doesn't work, because eve combat pvp is restricted and inaccessible without 105 mil SP god toon.


I.... I hope you're being sarcastic? I can't tell.

Seven days after starting, I had my first PvP action in null - resulting in the loss of my ship, an Atron. I probably had less than a million SP at that point. 13 minutes later, in my Incursus, I was on my first killmail, a Vagabond. A minute after that, a second killmail, also a Vagabond. Then after another 15 minutes, I lost the Incursus.

It was a glorious day.

Yes, I was flying with some very good pilots, but my little ships mattered.


I'm not being sarcastic, because what I said is entirely true. You just proved it.
Tell me, where would you be without those "some very good pilots", and you can go and keep believing your little ship mattered anything more than a living bait with the hook stuffed up your rear.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#526 - 2015-03-20 02:52:24 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
I'm not being sarcastic, because what I said is entirely true. You just proved it.
Tell me, where would you be without those "some very good pilots", and you can go and keep believing your little ship mattered anything more than a living bait with the hook stuffed up your rear.


You said "pvp is restricted and inaccessible without 105 mil SP god toon." Yet I was PvPing with less than a million SP. And if you think an Atron and Incursus is only good for bait, you don't understand small-gang PvP very well.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#527 - 2015-03-20 02:58:28 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
because everyone knows you don't join CODE if you're good for anything other than F1 monkeyism against a gunless target.


And behold, the shocking intellectual dishonesty of carebears, ladies and gentlemen.

It is impossible that anyone would hold a contradictory viewpoint in any honesty, according to Basil here.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#528 - 2015-03-20 03:06:34 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:

Aw man, aw man, aw man, you just sounded like those secret agents in my old man's conspiracy fiction books. You know, like "we can neither confirm nor deny... " style.
In one statement you both DENIED the statement of importance of SP saying you'd smash it with a tool, and then just CONFIRMED the same statement by saying people would run and dock, apparently nobody runs and docks without a reason, and if SP wall is not a reason like you stated in denial, they would have no reason to do that, unless it's true, in which case it's a confirmation. Since you expressed both opinions, and I expressed one, this makes the SP issue win 1.5 to 0.5 in favor or relevant between us.
That aside, I must cover misunderstanding you have. First, average SP is just like any other completely generic average, useless. It's TOTAL SP that counts. Of course, SP is a non-linear force multiplier - an order of magnitude advantage in SP is two orders of magnitude advantage in your ship capabilities - so even two groups with comparable total SP may be not comparable in amount of capabilities, but you get the point.

I never said that it was irrelevant, nor of no consequence, only that banding together to overcome it most definitely does work, within reason. Given the nature of SP's function within the game, to say that it's irrelevant takes a special kind of willful ignorance.
As an extreme example of something that wouldn't work: 255 day one newbies in rookie ships, attacking a maxed SP piloted Nyx.
However, give them all about four months of training, and something a bit less ridiculous shipwise (at least a few being dictors/hictors), and you've got a dead super.
This obviously assumes no outside interference, and yes, I know it's a ridiculous (though not impossible) scenario.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#529 - 2015-03-20 03:09:21 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
100% of space is mine to go pew pew in, because EVE Online is a PvP game.

Quoted to be wrong by CCP Seagull herself in today's fanfest stream.

Except that he isn't wrong.
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#530 - 2015-03-20 03:12:05 UTC
Eli Stan wrote:
I still don't see how subjecting the 40%ers to war decs (assuming they are actually in NPC corps) will increase the retention of those players. Question I still think they'll simply quit earlier. Only by introducing them to social aspects of play during the NPE will they have a chance of becoming long-term players. (At least, that's what happened with me, an MMO newbie in addition to an EVE newbie, by exposure to CAS's social aspects.)

Also note something I said earlier. I pointed out CAS very specifically, as being about the only new player NPC corp that is worth a damn. Assuming that you had no idea what you were doing when you selected your starting school, you got lucky, nothing more. If you'd have picked say, Hedion University, you may well just be another early Eve burnout who quit out of sheer boredom after a couple of weeks or months.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#531 - 2015-03-20 03:14:54 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
100% of space is mine to go pew pew in, because EVE Online is a PvP game.

Quoted to be wrong by CCP Seagull herself in today's fanfest stream.

Except that he isn't wrong.


Shh, don't let facts get in the way of his ranting.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#532 - 2015-03-20 03:24:00 UTC
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
Eli Stan wrote:
I still don't see how subjecting the 40%ers to war decs (assuming they are actually in NPC corps) will increase the retention of those players. Question I still think they'll simply quit earlier. Only by introducing them to social aspects of play during the NPE will they have a chance of becoming long-term players. (At least, that's what happened with me, an MMO newbie in addition to an EVE newbie, by exposure to CAS's social aspects.)

Also note something I said earlier. I pointed out CAS very specifically, as being about the only new player NPC corp that is worth a damn. Assuming that you had no idea what you were doing when you selected your starting school, you got lucky, nothing more. If you'd have picked say, Hedion University, you may well just be another early Eve burnout who quit out of sheer boredom after a couple of weeks or months.

This suggests the solution is in player hands via veteran engagement.

I'd wager the core issue with retention isn't NPC corps specifically, but the concept of social groups designed to concentrate the clueless. If we're looking at interaction as a retention driver that has to be player driven, there isn't anything CCP can do about it. So the issue becomes that no matter what environment you put new players into, if there aren't veterans with an interest or desire to interact with them, they burn out. Interestingly, if what you say of CAS is true that serves as proof there is nothing preventing that from happening in other NPC corps.

What then can CCP do to encourage the real solution, veteran players actually being more involved with the general population of new players?
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#533 - 2015-03-20 03:27:18 UTC
Beats me why players who are NOT members of NPC corporations post in this thread.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#534 - 2015-03-20 03:33:40 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
This suggests the solution is in player hands via veteran engagement.

I'd wager the core issue with retention isn't NPC corps specifically, but the concept of social groups designed to concentrate the clueless. If we're looking at interaction as a retention driver that has to be player driven, there isn't anything CCP can do about it. So the issue becomes that no matter what environment you put new players into, if there aren't veterans with an interest or desire to interact with them, they burn out. Interestingly, if what you say of CAS is true that serves as proof there is nothing preventing that from happening in other NPC corps.

What then can CCP do to encourage the real solution, veteran players actually being more involved with the general population of new players?

I agree with just about everything you said there. However, for some reason, a core groups of about fifteen seven year plus veterans decided to make that NPC corp their permanent home, in order to help the new blood. They are the antithesis of what most people expect when they hear "noobcorp". They have a group that lives in Syndicate, a member who uses their Rorqual almost solely for creating jump clones for players too young to have the standings to place them in NPC stations so they can go pvp in null (they operate as NPSI), etc. Hell, they have an actual spinoff alliance that has participated in the AT, and they fielded a group in the NEO at least once that I am aware of.
I haven't seen anything even remotely resembling that kind of engagement from the other starter corporations. Hell, you're lucky to get twenty lines of text in corp chat in a two hour play session in most of the others.
What caused this? The hell if I know. It existed long before I came to Eve.

As for what CCP can do to encourage veteran engagement, I honestly haven't a clue. Outside of what I just mentioned, I've only ever seen that level of engagement with new players in E-UNI, GSF, and BNI. I am sure it exists on smaller scales, but those are the only ones that I have witnessed firsthand.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#535 - 2015-03-20 03:34:26 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

This suggests the solution is in player hands via veteran engagement.

I'd wager the core issue with retention isn't NPC corps specifically, but the concept of social groups designed to concentrate the clueless. If we're looking at interaction as a retention driver that has to be player driven, there isn't anything CCP can do about it. So the issue becomes that no matter what environment you put new players into, if there aren't veterans with an interest or desire to interact with them, they burn out. Interestingly, if what you say of CAS is true that serves as proof there is nothing preventing that from happening in other NPC corps.

What then can CCP do to encourage the real solution, veteran players actually being more involved with the general population of new players?

CCP Rise alluded to that at Fanfest today either in his short presentation on the NPE, or in the game design panel; where he mentioned, as he has before, that CCP see a strong relationship between players social engagement and their likelihood to remain in the game. Part of the goal with the NPE changes I think is to try to increase social contact as early as possible.

Where the issue of the NPC Corps fits into that is that there is no structure in an NPC Corp that itself encourages social interaction in the same way that player Corps do.

It doesn't mean that NPC Corps have to be bad at social interation (eg. CAS), but that if you can encourage people to move into player run Corps, you automatically put them in an environment that by design is far more structured around social interaction.

Definitely I think, where veterans are involved in those Corps, the new players have a better chance of learning good skills, as opposed to Corps of new players; which can also be a symptom of areas of play within NPC Corps (eg. new players see mostly other new players in starter systems so it's likely that any social interaction will be with other new players rather than veterans).
Ciel993
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#536 - 2015-03-20 03:38:03 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:
Beats me why players who are NOT members of NPC corporations post in this thread.


You know, threads like this tend to escalate quickly...
Niobe Song
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#537 - 2015-03-20 03:38:29 UTC
OK what I said a few pages back that I would never leave the NPC corp? After watching the keynote on the future of Player Owned Structures I would actually reconsider my stance once that is rolled out. That actually looks exciting and fun and something to look forward to being a part of.

And also I would like to say to the CODE terrorist guy who I have been poking fun at, I get the sense that one of the reasons he hates NPC corp players, is that he sees them all as the types of players that ask for nerfs against his preferred playstyle (ganking I presume).

Nothing could be further from the truth. While I don't think I would have anything in common with most of the people in that corp I enjoy the fact that they are around. I like the terror they and others like them instill in high sec. The fact even with the protection of Concord you are never truly safe. Especially if you play stupidly or AFK. I love to put a little fear into new Retriever pilots who post their untanked fits. Like telling a naughty child that CODE will get them if they misbehave and don't fly responsibly. For the short time I had a little mining fleet (before I got sick of it) they were the only thing that kept it slightly interesting because danger was always right around the corner. I love when people in corp post kills of indies with billions of isk worth of cargo in an Iteron V with no modules at all and I love when my own blockade runner makes it to a marketplace safely.

That said I don't have an issue with any game play nerfs and loopholes that CCP put in place orany buffs to mining or indy ships which make sense from a lore perspective. But I think keeping high sec dangerous makes Eve more interesting.

I am not sure wardecs are the only way to do that but honestly don't have enough experience with the matter to give any constructive feedback or ideas to improve it.

And I still say the NPE more than anything else is the answer to improving player retention (if anyone truly cares about that in this thread).
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#538 - 2015-03-20 03:41:23 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

This suggests the solution is in player hands via veteran engagement.


Quite the opposite.

It suggests that thus far, the only mitigating factor in favor of NPC corps is completely player created and player driven.

That is just how badly CCP has failed in this regard.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#539 - 2015-03-20 03:49:59 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:
Beats me why players who are NOT members of NPC corporations post in this thread.

Because it's the only game I personally play, so I have as much stake in this issue as anyone else.

You don't need to be in an NPC Corp (I have alts in NPC Corps, so I guess I could post with those) to be interested in the topic.
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#540 - 2015-03-20 03:51:17 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:
Beats me why players who are NOT members of NPC corporations post in this thread.

Because it's the only game I personally play, so I have as much stake in this issue as anyone else.

You don't need to be in an NPC Corp (I have alts in NPC Corps, so I guess I could post with those) to be interested in the topic.

I was wondering if I was the only one who found it odd that we were just encouraged to post with NPC corp alts. Must be something in the water.