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Does alignment affect the time into warp?
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Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#21 - 2015-03-20 00:40:00 UTC
Yes...and no. It depends on where you're facing at the time.

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2015-03-20 00:41:10 UTC
Drez Arthie wrote:
One would think that you warp when the velocity component in the intended direction of travel reaches the required fraction of max speed (dot product of your velocity vector with unit vector pointing to warp destination). Maybe that is too physics-y though, who knows what the code actually does.

That's precisely what it does.

When your speed hits 75% of your maximum speed in the direction you want to warp, you warp.

But since when you start aligning from standing still you are going in the direction you choose to head as soon as you start moving, the only limiting factor is speed.

Therefore, if you get webbed while you are aligning into warp, the "max speed" part drops but your current speed doesn't drop instantly. So if you are going 20 m/s and your top speed is 100m/sec, but you are then double 50% webbed, your "max speed" drops to 25 m/s, which means the new threshold to go into warp happens to be 20 m/s, so you instantly spring into warp.

Now the animation to turn around takes longer than this whole process, which takes a total of 2 seconds. That means that when you enter warp, your ship is still visually swinging around onto your new heading, even though you are actually already traveling in a straight line.

I really can't explain it any more simply than this.

It's not a bug.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#23 - 2015-03-20 00:43:10 UTC
I have tested it. I found the direction you are pointing does not effect time to warp.

When someone in fleet says "align" they mean get to speed traveling in the right direction. Also this means "mine aligned" is rather hard. Just pointing the right way will not help. You need to be moving. In a typical ship, you move out of range of your rock quickly. Hence CCP added the Higgs Anchor thing.

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Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2015-03-20 00:55:59 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Drez Arthie wrote:
One would think that you warp when the velocity component in the intended direction of travel reaches the required fraction of max speed (dot product of your velocity vector with unit vector pointing to warp destination). Maybe that is too physics-y though, who knows what the code actually does.

That's precisely what it does.


I don't think so, because if you undock in a really slow ship, the velocity with which the station spits you out seems to somehow interfere with aligning for warp. If it were a pure v_current (dot) v_intended formula, the velocity in another arbitrary direction would not affect your time to hit warp.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2015-03-20 01:09:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Drez Arthie wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
Drez Arthie wrote:
One would think that you warp when the velocity component in the intended direction of travel reaches the required fraction of max speed (dot product of your velocity vector with unit vector pointing to warp destination). Maybe that is too physics-y though, who knows what the code actually does.

That's precisely what it does.


I don't think so, because if you undock in a really slow ship, the velocity with which the station spits you out seems to somehow interfere with aligning for warp. If it were a pure v_current (dot) v_intended formula, the velocity in another arbitrary direction would not affect your time to hit warp.


I have no idea what a pure v_current (dot) v_intended formula is, but I can say for absolute certain that I am correct in this instance.

Yes if a station spits you at at speed, it will take you longer to be moving in a direction other than the one it spits out out towards. If you attempt to warp in the direction it spits you out in you will instantly enter warp, known as an instaundock.

If you are going 10k m/sec SpaceEast, and you suddenly need to go directly SpaceNorthEast towards a particular point in space, it takes a hell of a lot more DeltaV to get your vector to within a degree or so of SpaceNortheast than it takes to accelerate to 3/4 of your max speed towards SpaceNorthEast from a standstill.

And that's even if you could burn in the direction that would give you a least time align. But you always to burn directly towards you align. Plus the magic space drag that occurs when your speed is higher than the speed you want to be going or your max speed tends to bung things up, but the basis premise is the same.

Source: 6 years and change of playing this game with a keen interest in the game mechanics. Also Kerbal Space Program.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#26 - 2015-03-20 01:14:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Primary This Rifter
Cecilla Rui wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Cecilla Rui wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
It's not physics, it's the animation not being in sync with what is actually happening.


So you would say it's a bug in the game. In a game where the physics of flying ships is the most important thing. Based on the time eve exists and the accountcounter it have such a bug would be a pathetic display.

CC.

No I wouldn't say its a bug, I would say it is the lesser of two evils. What you want will cause lag, none of us want lag. As long as you understand the mechanics, what you see on the screen doesn't really matter unless you get hung up on immersion but you haven't said anything about that.


Okay that may be your opinion, but i think you can almost always compile things without bugs and without causing lags. The one/team programming should be that advanced to fix even things like that.
The little things in the game are the things to make that up. All those realistic feature in eve e.g. the missiles with their parabolic and recalculated flight path if the target is moving or not.... are features why i decided to play eve and not another game. That's why i would say it is a bug! Blink

CC.

You clearly don't know anything about programming.
Misty Allure
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2015-03-20 01:15:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Misty Allure
Anhenka wrote:

..Now the animation to turn around takes longer than this whole process, which takes a total of 2 seconds. That means that when you enter warp, your ship is still visually swinging around onto your new heading, even though you are actually already traveling in a straight line.

I really can't explain it any more simply than this.

It's not a bug.


Yeah, you've got it spot on. The alternatives are..

a. Spin a capital size ship to it's correct direction within 2 seconds (how would a 1 billion kg ship spinning on a dime affect your immersion?)
or
b. Remove being able to web larger ships into warp and also adjust the warp entry criteria to now include the visual direction of the ship.

Also, if this is the biggest thing that concerns you about Eve's space physics you should probably go back to school!

Edit. comments aimed at OP, not at Anhenka
Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2015-03-20 01:37:45 UTC
Anhenka wrote:


I have no idea what a pure v_current (dot) v_intended formula is, but I can say for absolute certain that I am correct in this instance.

Yes if a station spits you at at speed, it will take you longer to be moving in a direction other than the one it spits out out towards. If you attempt to warp in the direction it spits you out in you will instantly enter warp, known as an instaundock.

If you are going 10k m/sec SpaceEast, and you suddenly need to go directly SpaceNorthEast towards a particular point in space, it takes a hell of a lot more DeltaV to get your vector to within a degree or so of SpaceNortheast than it takes to accelerate to 3/4 of your max speed towards SpaceNorthEast from a standstill.

And that's even if you could burn in the direction that would give you a least time align. But you always to burn directly towards you align. Plus the magic space drag that occurs when your speed is higher than the speed you want to be going or your max speed tends to bung things up, but the basis premise is the same.

Source: 6 years and change of playing this game with a keen interest in the game mechanics. Also Kerbal Space Program.


10k m/sec SpaceEast is 7.1k m/sec SpaceNorthEast. Source: PhD Physics, but even high school physics would tell you
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2015-03-20 01:54:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Drez Arthie wrote:


10k m/sec SpaceEast is 7.1k m/sec SpaceNorthEast. Source: PhD Physics, but even high school physics would tell you

You can try to use specific definitions and formulas to try and debate the way you think it works and pick apart meanings if you like.

I'm not here to debate definitions, I came here to explain to someone how the game works and under what conditions you go into warp. I did so.

If the formula you stated earlier does not fit the situations I have explained, then you are not using the right model to try and explain it.

Even high school physics taught me that if the theoretic modeled results do not return anything resembling consistent empirical results, the fault almost certainly lies with the theory.
Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2015-03-20 01:57:33 UTC
Anhenka wrote:

If the formula you stated earlier does not fit the situations I have explained, then you are not using the right model to try and explain it.


You're right, the model of "75% max velocity in the direction of warp" does not fit what actually happens in the game. There must be another model under the hood.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#31 - 2015-03-20 02:01:01 UTC
Rowells wrote:
the server recognizes ships only as spheres with mass, agility, and a velocity (including direction). It doesn't matter which direction the ship model is facing if it is at 0m/s. If you are movin at any velocity counter to your warp direction, this increases the time since it has to move to proper angle.

For example:

My rifter is standing still facing the opposite direction for warp. It has the exact same align time as a rifter facing the proper direction.

If my rifter is moving at any velocity away from the warp angle, the time to warp increases.


This is completely correct.

I will add that it is entirely possible to have ships entering warp while their alignment animation is still sideways compared to their direction of warp travel. This is most easily noticed in freighters when they are webbed into warp.

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Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2015-03-20 02:01:32 UTC
Drez Arthie wrote:
Anhenka wrote:

If the formula you stated earlier does not fit the situations I have explained, then you are not using the right model to try and explain it.


You're right, the model of "75% max velocity in the direction of warp" does not fit what actually happens in the game. There must be another model under the hood.

Feel free to go find it then, if you think it's incorrect.

The rest of us will use it as a perfectly functional model for most situations, since neither we nor the server apparently think 10k m/s SpaceEast == 7.1k m/s SpaceNorthEast as a suitable criteria for entering warp towards a point directly SpaceNorthEast.
Misty Allure
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2015-03-20 02:26:41 UTC
Drez Arthie wrote:


10k m/sec SpaceEast is 7.1k m/sec SpaceNorthEast. Source: PhD Physics, but even high school physics would tell you


Wait, what? Can you break that down for us scrubs that didn't go to 'high school'
Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2015-03-20 02:48:52 UTC
Misty Allure wrote:
Drez Arthie wrote:


10k m/sec SpaceEast is 7.1k m/sec SpaceNorthEast. Source: PhD Physics, but even high school physics would tell you


Wait, what? Can you break that down for us scrubs that didn't go to 'high school'


NorthEast = North/sqrt(2) + East/sqrt(2), not that complicated
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#35 - 2015-03-20 03:45:29 UTC
Wut?
A) Sit in a Tornado aligned to, say, Hek 8-8, and shooting suspects.
B) Or the same Tornado in Hek, but aligned to a safe spot.

Do you want to be in that A) Tornado bulldozer spending seconds turning, aligning to a warp spot, and getting up to the minimum speed to initiate warp?
Or do you want to be the B) Tornado, that is already aligned, already has some momentum going toward the align point at the time of firing, just in case?

I don't think 'stay aligned' is some old wives' tale handed down from FC to FC. Turning your ship around and getting velocity up to warp take some time. Knowing how long your ship takes, and how long the other guy's ship takes-- that's the edge EVE players are looking for
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2015-03-20 03:49:58 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Yw.

To warp you need 75% max speed (after all modifiers, e.g. webs) and direction within a few '3D degrees' (whatever that is) of the destination. Again, you notice this 'within a few degrees' thing with fat capitals, they enter warp before being perfectly aligned. They complete the alignment while already in warp (it's kinda funny to see).

It's more like watching a powerslide played in reverse, when capitals enter warp.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2015-03-20 03:56:56 UTC
Khergit Deserters wrote:
Wut?
A) Sit in a Tornado aligned to, say, Hek 8-8, and shooting suspects.
B) Or the same Tornado in Hek, but aligned to a safe spot.

Do you want to be in that A) Tornado bulldozer spending seconds turning, aligning to a warp spot, and getting up to the minimum speed to initiate warp?
Or do you want to be the B) Tornado, that is already aligned, already has some momentum going toward the align point at the time of firing, just in case?

I don't think 'stay aligned' is some old wives' tale handed down from FC to FC. Turning your ship around and getting velocity up to warp take some time. Knowing how long your ship takes, and how long the other guy's ship takes-- that's the edge EVE players are looking for


The subject is referring to the so called "passive align", which means sitting still after aligning to a target. This is a myth.

Of course if you are already aligned and moving towards the warp point you will get out faster.
Justin Zaine
#38 - 2015-03-20 06:12:35 UTC
I can't count the number of times i've killed wartarget industrials because someone in their corp told them "If you mine aligned, you'll be safe hurr durr."

Of course, the only way that mining aligned would actually help is if you were maintaining speed instead of sitting at 0m/s pointing in the right direction, but who wants to worry about constantly moving outside of mining laser range during something that most people do afk.

Silly miners Roll

He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.

He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#39 - 2015-03-20 07:31:13 UTC
I've heard that Chaotic Evil ships warp fastest. Can anyone confirm?

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2015-03-20 07:40:47 UTC
Justin Zaine wrote:
I can't count the number of times i've killed wartarget industrials because someone in their corp told them "If you mine aligned, you'll be safe hurr durr."


"aligned" means your last command was "align to", and you have reached the minimum speed to enter warp (see earlier tedious argument about what direction you should be moving). Stopping your ship means you are no longer aligned. It's even more obvious if your destination is up or down, since our ships think they are submarines and settle into an imaginary horizontal position, which does not point toward up or down destinations.

Then again, you can mine while aligned for warp, but to do it continuously requires going back and forth between destinations in opposite directions from the mining site. It makes mining mildly more interesting to keep that up.
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