EVE General Discussion

As been stated bazillion of times in this very thread, eve is NOT a PvP game. It's a sandbox game that has some boring PvP in it.
This invalidates the rest of this point.
What exactly broken about war decs? Grief deccing, total lack of sane defender options aside dodging, joke of a cost to completely disable any activity which isn't grief deccing itself, and total invulnerability of a grief deccer.


First, you're trying hard at ignorance again - it does not allow lowsec style aggression, it allows nullsec/sh style aggression, because even lowsec has consequences for aggression, which war decs and grief decs lack.
Secondly, you openly admit that not just dodging, but staying in NPC corps is done by grief decs (war decs don't do that, only grief decs do). Which is exactly the problem - grief decs in current form need to go.
Next, please tell me, which activities exactly NPC corp members are excluded from? They don't bore themselves with combat peeveepee stupidity? They do. They don't mine? They do. They don't build? They do. They don't rat? They do. They don't contest sov? Yes, they don't. Hardly most of the activities in the game.


If player likes isolation, forcing him out is negative. If player doesn't like isolation, he can give it a spin, nobody forces him to stay in NPC corp. If there is too much risk outside, it's a problem of too much risk outside, not of NPC corps.

Yeah..but it's not, is it?

NPC corp miners getting ganked all the time. Haulers in NPC corps getting ganked all the time. Builders in NPC corps getting screwed due to mechanics changes ( or another player does some market manipulation) when the stuff they just spent a month building becomes worthless. Traders in NPC corps being at the wrong end of a trade war. Mission runners in NPC corps having their mission objectives/loot/salvage stolen. Just plain folk in NPC corps being scammed for all their ISK.

The list goes on but I think you see what I'm saying. It's simply not that 'cozy and safe'.

So, as much as a really small, really verbal subset of risk averse PVP people like to whine about wardec avoidance, it's just not really a thing. There is danger at every turn for those in NPC corps. Plenty of ways to make them miserable without crying to force them into a barrel because you are too lazy to actually make an effort for your kills.

Mr Epeen

So what is really bothering you is you can't wardec, because, otherwise NPC corp members are as gankable as anybody else is in high sec. And that is exactly what wardecs are for high sec, a pretext to gank and play station games in high sec without being Concordokken. The real name of this thread should be "OHHH Y U NO LET ME WARDEC EVERBODY?". Perhaps you should start a thread requiring the need for a casus belli to wardec, a mechanic similar with suspect/engagement timers.

would be good if they didn't keep changing the sand pit ..... ..... ....

Come out of the NPC corps so we can war dec you.
Come out of the NPC corps so we can war dec you.
Come out of the NPC corps so we can war dec you.
You can't have fun in EVE without social contacts!
Come out of the NPC corps so we can war dec you.
Come out of the NPC corps so we can war dec you.
Come out of the NPC corps so we can war dec you.

simple solution for those wishing to tell others how to play.

please provide your credit card information so you can pay subscription for everyone else.

then you can tell how to play.

well i was never one for shutting up when told.

miners vs miners.

traders vs traders.

incursian fleets vs incursian fleets.

people fighting over sov..

not player vs player? lol

you might want to inform everyone on the server of this. i don't think they are aware.

EVE is a sandbox game based on Player vs player.

let's all hold hands sing songs build many many things and never fire another shot at eachother. hahaha,, i'm sorry, but the thoughts of it are hilarious. and the results would lead to the end of the game as we know it.

not PVP,,, fecking stupid thing to say,,, tell me,, did she say it wasn't a PVP game ? i dont think so.

Don't forget "Shhhhh, it's for your own good. You'll like it after a while."

Anyway, I'm engaging in a bit of reflective listening to see if I understand the argument properly:

1) Fact - CCP says 40% of new players end up in solo activities, and are at risk of getting bored and quitting.
2) Theory - Those players are in NPC corps in highsec.
3) Theory - That's because highsec without war decs is so safe and cozy that there's no need to band together with other players for protection.
4) Theory - Forcing / incenting those players into player corps will expose them to increased risk via war decs, leading to greater player cooperation for protection, leading to more socialization and higher player retention rates.

Is that about it? (I'm ignoring the possibility of an "I just want more targets to shoot in highsec" argument because if that's your thought all I have to say is HTFU and come to null.) (I'm also ignoring the possibility of a "Too much ISK is made in high for the level of risk" because my response to that is basically "Nerf highsec Incursions." Of course, Incursions are by design and application heavy in multi-player social interaction. FWIW, personally I'm not against highsec Incursions - I make plenty of ISK in null to suit my needs and don't feel the need to restrict somebody else's ability to make ISK.)

I'll throw out one more, that's not part of the above argument:
5) Fact - CCP says they realize the NPE directs newbies towards those solo activities.

Regarding the points:

#2) CCP hasn't, as far as I know, said anything about #2. Just that the players are mostly solo, which could also mean single-person corps. Without any facts to go on, I don't have much to say either way.

#3) Other people have mentioned ways in which highsec is not safe and cozy. But yes, the lack of war decs does mean it's slightly more safe than it is for player corps.

#4) Here's where I think the logic really falls apart. I think it's unlikely that many of the 40% playing solo at "level my Raven" will result in them, say, becoming CFC or TEST line members and thereby become committed, social EVE players. More likely, they'll each form their own one-person corp, continue like before, and simply dock up for the duration of wars. And possibly won't bother resubbing, since the wars prevent their style of play, however boring it might eventually be. So I think that getting the 40% out of NPC corps will simply cause those 40% to quit sooner than otherwise.

#5) Instead of messing with NPC corps, I think the game would be better served by CCP advocating social play more. Maybe advertise a curated list of NPSI fleets - Bombers Bar, Spectre Fleet, Agony roams, even CAS Combat Guild or other similar NPC-based fleets. NPSI fleets are a low-commitment, low-risk intro to this sort of social gaming. It's what got me into EVE, and what has me coming back. Or a NPE Opportunity that can only be accomplished by being in a fleet of five or more players. (Dagan in the SoE arc attempts this, being so tanky that no single newbie is likely to have enough DPS to kill him, but not having had any MMO experience prior to EVE, I took it as a challenge like in single-player games and figured out how to kill him one my own. Op fail for promoting social play.) Advertise more about events like the current Fountain war, which might catch somebody's fancy and lead them to look for a fleet/corp to get involved with. CCP can even lead NPSI outings to such combat hotspots.

But no, making the 40%ers (of those of us in the 10% group who like remaining in their starter corp) join player corps, or form their own one-person corps, won't increase player retention, I think.

Banding together doesn't work, because eve combat pvp is restricted and inaccessible without 105 mil SP god toon. Any silly attempt to pvp in your 30 mil SP loltoon would only entertain the god toon owners, unless you're brave and bring 10-30 10 mil SP toons to counter their SP advantage. SP, as a matter of fact, is the greatest force multiplier in eve and its inaccessibility is at the root of grief dec problem.

Any combat pvp fleet is just losing ships AND entertaining the god toon fleets at the same time. Taking any part in this is bad enough to drive multi-billionaires like me out of the game, not to mention newbie with his 20 million wallet. The nature of eve combat pvp is that if fight actually happens, it means the other party knows for sure they are going to sweep you with no losses, and taking part in that is just plain abuse. Roughly the same kind of abuse as taking orders you don't like is.

So, I'm going to draw the simple bottom line here: EVE has everything and more than everything to keep people who can live or like being abused by ultra-extreme SP-bias of combat pvp. It's virtually every other area of what people expect in a "space sim" where EVE is lacking. Solo activities do not make people quit, the reason is simple, if you get bored with A, you can always try B, and this is where it gets important, because trying B you get "BAMMMM YOU JUST HIT SP WALL BUDDY, COME BACK AND TRY ME IN A YEAR OR SO - (signed) YOUR DEAD B". And let's be honest, for an average player, a year is about 360 times more time than what he has a life plan for. God toons and specialized extra alts you pay for solve this, but not for newbros.

Real Bottom line: Combat pvp self-abuse junkies retention is fine, SP wall prevents every other professions retention.

Or, you might just end up with egg on your face.

From the New Player FAQ:

5.3 SOME PLAYER JUST SHOT ME; IS THAT ALLOWED?
In EVE Online, any player may attack any other player if they choose to, no
matter where they happen to be. This is because EVE Online is essentially
a PvP (Player versus Player) game at its core.

Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

It can be both. A pvp based sandbox game.

pvp is not just shooting though. There are many more aspects to pvp than simply killing each other.