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why do players stay in npc corps?

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GetSirrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#461 - 2015-03-19 02:49:20 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
the single most broken game mechanic in MMO history?

So you signed up for the war-dec arm of CODE, to play the single most broken game mechanic in MMO history. Not exactly the best line on a resume. We can just take a leaf from the Book of Goon: if it aint working, you are doing it wrong.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Because the playstyles that are enabled by the existing NPC corp mechanics are bad for the game. They damage player retention, that's not even up for argument anymore, it's a fact.
A decent attempt at Fallacy. The "playstyle" has no relation to the player retention indicated by CCP. The key point made by CCP related to whether or not a new player makes a social connection. You can have social connection without being in a player run corporation.

Now you, yourself have joined CODE not because you wanted more risk, but because you made a social connection to them. It is the same reason players elect to leave NPC not because they want more risk, but they make that connection.

Thus the opposite is true; players remain with NPC for a lack of social connection.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
People like you have been arguing for stripping away player choice when it benefits you, and now that philosophy gets to bite you in the ass.
How is the choice to remain a NPC, robbing the choice of someone else to leave it?

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The time is coming when you lot will have to pay the piper.
Sadly no, Eve will not suddenly be led to reason. The May Queen's Spring Cleaning does not include forcing players into corps, removing L4 & Incurions or veldspar only belts. Or any of the trolling tripe trotted out by the Svengali of High-sec.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#462 - 2015-03-19 02:57:11 UTC
GetSirrus wrote:

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
People like you have been arguing for stripping away player choice when it benefits you, and now that philosophy gets to bite you in the ass.
How is the choice to remain a NPC, robbing the choice of someone else to leave it?


Now that is some impressive effort to miss the point.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#463 - 2015-03-19 03:01:29 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Eli Stan wrote:

Nowhere in that statement is a cause of player isolation identified. *snipped rant*


Didn't even read what you quoted, did you?

The playstyles enabled by NPC corps are bad for the game. Go ahead and take another crack at it, I'll wait.

No playstyle is enabled by NPC corps. NPC corps actually reduce the ability to participate in certain playstyles, but nothing is enabled in an NPC corp that isn't enabled otherwise.
Valkin Mordirc
#464 - 2015-03-19 05:07:51 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Eli Stan wrote:

Nowhere in that statement is a cause of player isolation identified. *snipped rant*


Didn't even read what you quoted, did you?

The playstyles enabled by NPC corps are bad for the game. Go ahead and take another crack at it, I'll wait.

No playstyle is enabled by NPC corps. NPC corps actually reduce the ability to participate in certain playstyles, but nothing is enabled in an NPC corp that isn't enabled otherwise.


You partly right. Though Kaarous has a point.

Being able to operate close to consequence free, although not a play style, is an advantage that indirectly causes issues. I'm at work I can go into detail with that later, if want. I'm sure Kaarous if he has the time can explain how that doesn't really fit the Marketing that CCP presented for all these years is the first one that comes to my mind.

#DeleteTheWeak
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#465 - 2015-03-19 05:42:12 UTC
Valkin Mordirc wrote:


Being able to operate close to consequence free, although not a play style, is an advantage that indirectly causes issues. I'm at work I can go into detail with that later, if want. I'm sure Kaarous if he has the time can explain how that doesn't really fit the Marketing that CCP presented for all these years is the first one that comes to my mind.




I don't see how you can turn a casual player into a hardcore player. And/or why do you, or the OP care to do it.
No idea what do you mean by consequence free... hauling alts that can't be warddeced? All the coloured Frogs function on that principle and that's why they're reliable. Do you feel like any player should respond to a higher authority? Should everything be under the control(l) of a donut or another? Isn't that exactly an attempt of playing safe that everybody disses it but avidly practices?

Curious about the issues you will detail later.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
Niobe Song
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#466 - 2015-03-19 06:26:57 UTC
I don't really see CCP removing the NPC corps so CODE terrorist guy and the others are flailing about pointlessly.

They may increase taxes or try to create some new content that requires being in a corp to try to entice people into player corps but I don't see them removing them altogether any time soon.

May as well try to get them to remove missions, mining, and incursions too while you are at it.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#467 - 2015-03-19 07:09:59 UTC
Niobe Song wrote:
I don't really see CCP removing the NPC corps so CODE terrorist guy and the others are flailing about pointlessly.


I don't really see where in this thread I've suggested that NPC corps be removed.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Valkin Mordirc
#468 - 2015-03-19 07:16:45 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:
Valkin Mordirc wrote:


Being able to operate close to consequence free, although not a play style, is an advantage that indirectly causes issues. I'm at work I can go into detail with that later, if want. I'm sure Kaarous if he has the time can explain how that doesn't really fit the Marketing that CCP presented for all these years is the first one that comes to my mind.




I don't see how you can turn a casual player into a hardcore player. And/or why do you, or the OP care to do it.
No idea what do you mean by consequence free... hauling alts that can't be warddeced? All the coloured Frogs function on that principle and that's why they're reliable. Do you feel like any player should respond to a higher authority? Should everything be under the control(l) of a donut or another? Isn't that exactly an attempt of playing safe that everybody disses it but avidly practices?

Curious about the issues you will detail later.



EVE has always from my perspective, been a game that consequence are a real thing. I'm not the only one, Forum Alts, are a great example of other players doing there best to avoid it.

I've never said I want casual players out of EVE, I don't mind that 40% or so of EVE newbro's take the casual path and mission/mine or whatever solo on there free time. That doesn't bother me.


One of the things that I personally, have a problem with is that NPC corps allow players to operate with only fear of being ganked, in Highsec. Avoiding these things, like wardec, ganks, and the such should avoided by mean of, Diplo's, Payment's, Brute Force, actual effort.

However NPC corps allows player to avoid Wardecs, allows people to basically dance around like a ninny with out the worry about risk. Getting Wardec by other corp is a risk you take with a player corp.

Avoiding Risk is fine, just as long as you put effort into it.

NPC corps being Wardec free take away that risk.

However NPC corps should not be Wardec, that would be silly, I'm not saying NPC corps SHOULD be wardec-able? Wardecable? I do think that people using NPC as a Wardec shield is a lazy way to get around a mechanic in the game. If you want to avoid Wardecs, you should Pay the Piper, Beat the **** out of the Piper or make friends with the Piper.

I believe that NPC along with other things I've said regarding NPE experiences inside them, allow for stagnation to occur of the player.
#DeleteTheWeak
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#469 - 2015-03-19 07:17:38 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Niobe Song wrote:
I don't really see CCP removing the NPC corps so CODE terrorist guy and the others are flailing about pointlessly.


I don't really see where in this thread I've suggested that NPC corps be removed.


to be fair, it was suggested by someone. i wonder who it was?

ƃuos ǝqoıu sɐʍ ʇı
Thora Zhubilai
Bluenose Corporation
#470 - 2015-03-19 10:11:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Thora Zhubilai
"Why do players stay in npc corps?"
Good question!
Also good is the question: "why shall players join a player corps?

To answer these questions is not easy.
100 (or 1000) peoples will have 100 different reasons.

To force players into Player Corps cannot be the solution.

Make player corps more attractive for newbies is the point, but how?
What can CCP do?
What can the older Players do?
Personally, I think that it’s up to the (Older) player to better introduce newbies to the game.
Help them to find FRIENDLY corps …and more will stay.
Help them to learn how to react by wardeccs (Fight if possible or move to another place for some time....)

Why do I play EVE?
There are few reasons: it is complex, it is harsh and,... that’s the most important (for me) I can do much more than just Pew Pew.
I hate Pew Pew, but I accept it as part of the game. I’m more fixed on industries. Yes I’m a Warmonger. I sell you the Gun you need to blow up my haulers or freighters…hahaha.


Other points: Wardeccs!...and ganking!
What’s the problem with?...Why do so many “lazy” peoples complain about?...
Not Wardeccs, not ganking are the problems…(Ok for a newbie they are problem)
but what after few month playing? Everyone should have learned to act with!!!!

Hi all!
Niobe Song
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#471 - 2015-03-19 10:16:28 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Niobe Song wrote:
I don't really see CCP removing the NPC corps so CODE terrorist guy and the others are flailing about pointlessly.


I don't really see where in this thread I've suggested that NPC corps be removed.


to be fair, it was suggested by someone. i wonder who it was?

ƃuos ǝqoıu sɐʍ ʇı


OK I'll bite. When did I say that?
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#472 - 2015-03-19 11:45:51 UTC
Eli Stan wrote:


The key aspects of "NPC corp mechanics" are:

  • No war decs.
  • No control tower or SOV ownership.
  • No CEO or other corp roles, including no ability to kick a toon from the corp.
  • No corp wallet or similar asset management.





nah sorry.

The key aspect of "NPC corp mechanics" are really down to one thing,,,,, No wars

everything else you can work around and is worked around.
i don't pretend to know the answers to this issue. but it does need to be dealt with.
Scira Crimson
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#473 - 2015-03-19 12:48:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Scira Crimson
How can any wardec argument be relevant as you can also make a 1 man corp? (You can just recreate a new corp if you get wardect, which costs at least 50 mio btw, right? So its 1 vs 50 mio.)

Imo the NPC Corp is just another (unnessary) noob trap on top of tons of extremly beginner unfriendly game mechanics.


NPC corps should have 0% tax. Thats all.
(You can also set up a 1 man corp for 1 mio ISK, losing player interaction->chat)


Any game is about meaningful player decisions, but:

(beginner) chat vs 11% tax

is just poor gamedesign.

Personally Id like to be in the beginner corp so maybe I find people who are new and create a corp with them, but I chose to stay in a 1 man Corp, because its more reasonable ...

Maybe I should amke 20 alts and talk with them. This is what this game is about... Extremly anti beginner and antisocial
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#474 - 2015-03-19 14:28:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Benny Ohu
Niobe Song wrote:
OK I'll bite. When did I say that?

top of page eighteen. my point is that it's easy to argue against a position that hasn't been voiced, a position that was designed to be argued against, a position that does not actually exist
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#475 - 2015-03-19 14:53:34 UTC

If you think aggression (on its own) in a PVP game is broken, then I think a coop server in a different game would be better suited for you. I've yet to see anyone enunciate what exactly is broken about the wardeccing mechanic itself. Everyone gets hung up on station camping which is popular in hisec, lowsec, nullsec, WH. Are we fixing station camping or is there actual feedback about hisec aggression rules specific to wardecs?

The wardec immunity rut is deep enough that players will get stuck in NPC Corps and exclude themselves from most of the activities in the game. People arguing against wardecs forget that all it does is allow lowsec style aggression in hisec. Again, are you arguing about station camping or aggression rules?

Total immunity to wardecs is nice and cozy and safe. Cozy, safe people also don't feel like taking any risks or trying out new things. The NPC corp rut is a perfect recipe for isolation, and eventually quitting the game for 40-90% of players out there. The discussion isn't about why you personally love your NPC corp. That's a topic for a diary. This was about 90% of starting EVE players.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#476 - 2015-03-19 14:59:11 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Niobe Song wrote:
OK I'll bite. When did I say that?

top of page eighteen. my point is that it's easy to argue against a position that hasn't been voiced, a position that was designed to be argued against, a position that does not actually exist


Yep, the "straw-man" argument. It's been going on from both sides, though. :)
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#477 - 2015-03-19 15:10:09 UTC
So I had a thought, which leads to some questions for those who think war decs in highsec are important - is it actuality of a dec that's important, or is it just the possibility of one that matters? The are plenty of player corps not currently subject to a war right now, I bet. Is that an issue? Which leads me to my thought - what if CONCORD were removed from the game entirely? If safe and cozy makes players bored and quit, and CONCORD exists pretty much only to make highsec safe and cozy, isn't the logical conclusion that CONCORD is bad for player retention and the game overall? (I'd say leave CONCORD in the contellations with starter systems, so that newbies aren't slaughtered upon their first undock.)
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#478 - 2015-03-19 15:20:12 UTC

I think Thera is a good lesson in why removing CONCORD needs to be better thought out from a trade and market point of view.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#479 - 2015-03-19 15:29:14 UTC
Alternatively, since I belive that the economy is vitally important to the gameplay of EVE and the movement of goods is vitally important to the economy, I'm intrigued by the idea of CONCORD "protecting" (or rather, avenging) only those ships that do not have any offensive modules or drones fitted whatsoever, combined with eliminating the war system. That way miners and haulers and industrialists moving goods to Jita can keep our economy going, but mission runners and Incursion runners and gankers are fair game as content, inventing them to team up more. (It's understood te gankers team up already.) This also allows for the creation of a true player-based police force by those wishing to be more effective white knights, and organized crime style protection rackets...
Kiandoshia
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#480 - 2015-03-19 15:32:13 UTC
Personally, for me, I use NPC corps to dodge wardecs. I only ever actually had to do it once and I am not even sure if it worked, but that's what I think they are there for. If I were to play all on my own, I'd probably still like all the hangar stuff and the wallet divisions and what not, that make inventory management a lot easier.

(Hint: It sucks but that's not the point!)