EVE General Discussion

I would pick the First one, the current one 1/1/1. And chose where by the other "more important" criteria.

The name of the game is greater cost (effort, risk, time), greater reward. That is a developmental goal as stated by the Devs. Hisec earns X, Null earns X+1, WH (null w/out local and w/ harder logistics) earns X+2. Incursions killed that balance.




No, Sov 0.0 is space owned by Players who are able to make and enforce their own laws. They are (in theory) encouraged to do so by the opportunity to secure access to a greater income than can be earned elsewhere and by the opportunity to secure access to unique industrial projects.

Add the words "provided by CONCORD" to each sec band, and you get a better idea for the system.
High Security provided by CONCORD (Gate/Station Guns, CONCORDOKKEN, Sec Status Hits)
Low Security provided by CONCORD (Gate/Station Guns, Sec Status Hits)
Null/No Security provided by CONCORD (Nothing)

Holding SOV is not an advantage in and of itself. It is a necessity to upgrade space to be usable and defensible in Sov Null.

The issue isn't (really) Hisec missions, mining, or industry.
Missions are pretty much fine, Mining has needed a boost everywhere since Drone Regions came out, and Industry is going to be easier and thus more profitable in hisec due to market efficiency no matter what happens.


The problem is with Hisec Incursions in which a competent fleet can earn ~100million Isk/hr with no logistical effort or need to hold SOV. This is better isk per hour than *any* singleboxed pilot can make in Null. A singleboxed pilot can make around 60-70million Isk/hr running anoms in a Carrier or Pimped faction BS. Incursions also draw ratters out of Null, which makes it feel emptier and less lived in, which reduces roaming and makes collecting good intel harder.


So right now, Hisec has more profitability for the individual pilot *and* has it easy in terms of logistics and building infrastructure. That's the problem.



No. It's "I enjoy this game and pay attention to the Devs when they explain developmental goals for various regions of Eve. Hisec Incursion rewards break the developmental goal of an income progression occurring with the decrease in security level."

The hisec l4 blitzer maxes out around 60-70mil isk/hr. The solo subcap Anomaly runner maxes out around the same (but gets the isk in raw isk form, not LP). I know these numbers because that's what I was getting when I ran missions, and that's what I get when too lazy to run my carrier.

Moreover, I'm not calling for a nerf to hisec Mission, Mining, or Industry rewards, as I've said before. They're fine. Whatever.
Incursions are the problem.



The dev's have said on numerous occasions that they want to reward risk, teamwork, and hard work. Letting 0.0 pilots earn more than Hisec pilots is how you do that.
In your terms, you can choose to have it easy *or* you can choose to make a high income. Incursions allow you to choose both at once.

Simply buffing nullsec will result in fairly large inflation which would be bad. So nerfing the rewards of hisec incursions is really the only way to balance the income progression that the Dev's have said they want.



For *any* hope of a response to this, you need to define your terms much more carefully.
The issues that would need to overcome to see stats like you seem to want:

Isk transfers are instant and not range limited, so it can flow around very easily

A Person is not limited to one account, and CCP may not be able to tie all alt accounts together without lumping roommates and such together, so internal alt-alt transfers are muddied

Most items are delivered to trade hubs for sale, and purchased from the same (nullsec is widely known as a net importer)

When items are repackaged and stacked, they lose their unique ID and are no longer traceable to where they were before the stack

Finally, the transfer of value around areas of space isn't really relevant in a discussion of buffing/nerfing incomes, as useful information would be hopelessly buried by the above issues and the different population densities.

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A classic response from a Capitalist Swine if I ever saw one. Bravo ! 10 out of 10 for sense of entitlement and disdain factor.

@ comrade

You are wrong.

Let me rephrase what i was trying to point out..

Having fun is the goal of life. Doing slave jobs to scrap by, working 16hrs a day to be able to buy bigger TV then the neighbor have is really bad habit.

PS, I am Nihilist.

Wspace is the most dangerous space, it SHOULD pay the most.

Sov null is about creating empires to live in. Forcing those who have built those empires to break into someone elses house to make isk (Incursion in enemy held space, wat do, can't dock) is a bit

Long distance travel in hisec is easy and thus having hotspots of income that move around is not a balancing factor. If you think moving around Null is just a matter of escaping gate camps, try docking in EC-P8R in an NPC corp toon.

The issue isn't the number of incursions spawned in hisec (though reducing that number would reduce rewards by increasing competition). It's the payout compared to viable, repeatable income generation in nullsec. Nullsec incursions are not completed for 3 main reasons:

Not enough people available to do the HQ site

Alliance leadership often views free cynojamming as a tactical advantage

No sense in setting up a ship for it on the off chance one spawns near me

The key to income generation is repeatability. Nullsec incursions don't have that because travel to enemy space in PvE ships to do PvE is suicidal (unless you're plexing in a cloaky ship).

The richest player in Eve is almost certainly someone who gets most of his isk from a trading and industry toon based in or near a major high sec trading hub. The largest isk holder at any given time is usually Akita T, who is based somewhere near Jita. It seems likely that high sec has the largest outflow of cash with all of the PvP players running high sec alts to generate isk for their mains in null and low sec. I've heard that "moons in nullsec" generate huge profits through PI but that supposedly goes mostly to corporate treasuries and CEO pockets. So maybe a CEO of a corp of a nullsec alliance that owns a lot of these moons could rival the highsec traders and industrialists. Of course, maybe they would not like to talk due to possible backlash over their "embezzlement."

Oh, and I forgot about those who ran various successful scams like robbing an Eve bank or a massive pyramid scheme involving over 1 trillion isk. But these mostly involve high sec as well.

Creating Empires means managing them logistically and politically. Also using all resources it has to offer is not bad. That means PI, Moon goo, rats, ore, anything that is inside the sov.

I dont disagree on your points about incursions being "bad" form of isk gain in null compared to empire. That still doesnt remove the fact that they are isk gaining road that players dont want to walk. Another example;

Null sec mining. If null sec was mined heavily, as in dedicated miners running 23/7, near bot like zen zone like empire belts/lvl 4's are atm, it would push the mineral prices down due to over supply. Sure, null sec mining income would go down but so would empire, lo and mission running mineral income. ATM null sec alliances havent bothered with this kind of "player set income" and instead are asking for straight isk payments in form of bounties. I know it myself as I'll rat in belt 100% more likely then whip out hulk and mine croc. That doesnt remove the fact that the ore income is there and me/someone else in null not mining it ensures minerals will sell just that much more for empire dwellers, thus increasing their income.

As for;
"not enough players available" <- recruit more, you're lacking people to grind group effort isk, I see no problem here.
" Alliance leadership " <- player choice, game should force player choices to have consequences, you cant have your cake and eat it too
"No sense in setting up a ship for it on the off chance one spawns near me" <- again, player choice of not bothering with it.

^^ 2 out of 3 above are able to be solved by making incursions that atm make "empire isk gain op" appear much more often in lo/null. That has two effects, more supply for the incursion lp -> empire gains go down, perhaps lures us to do something else then just chain rats 23/7. Then again it would require us to setup pve ships, and that's not how we roll. Better bears be forced to something.

It's really hard to figure out ways to boost null that are not just "solo lvl 4 in null sec". Mining hasnt worked, null could offer multiple times the isk/h for mining then empire, also mining would push empire mining/lvl 4 mineral gains down. But to achieve this, grunts would need to setup "lolhulks." NPC killing = lvl 4 but you need to fit cloak and watch local. Moon goo was voted out by players. PI? Holy clickfest batman, if average grunt couldnt stand pos bashing how do you expect them to spend time handling PI. Incursions force you to run after them and alliances prefer to sit still. What there is left and how many of the above is either changed due to players asking for it/not bothering with it?

But I'm still most in favor of player vs player action giving some form of additional payout in null/lo. The increased mod drop rate for subcaps would allow that. Yes it would require someone to actually "clean" battlefields and so forth but again, group effort should receive rewards. Or system wide "industrial" interface that sov holder controls, making it modern "moon goo." Corp/alliance holds sov in system = receives rewards. Pretty much anything that requires more then guy + his alt to achieve. Nerfing empire income only makes ratting in null better, hence boosting solo play in null instead it being in empire. To my eyes that's not what we should aim at.