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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Sojourn: The Amarr

Author
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#121 - 2015-03-09 22:55:37 UTC
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
No. Apophatic theology is very much theology: It's not faith in itself. It's a way of knowing God. That is part of 'faith' but so is cataphatic theology. The crucial point here is how you define 'conventional sense' and whether you deny that there is 'sense' outside 'conventional sense'.

Ah. Hm.

Lyn Farel wrote:
If you are looking for neutral and pragmatic definitions...

Apophatic also means negative theology, or defining God through what God is not, rather than what it is.

Cataphatic is more or less the contrary, defining God through what God is.

Both are considered to define God in a simplistic way, especially the latter. But any human text will present such flaws.

Apophatic theology is less omnipresent in Scripture, but that makes it even more valuable in my eyes.

Ah! ... that makes it a good bit clearer.

I'm getting an impression that the Amarrian God is ... well, the existence of theology as a field is making more sense.
Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#122 - 2015-03-10 00:18:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicoletta Mithra
Well, I really tried to avoid these simplistic definitions. They really seem to shed light on what is meant, as one thinks one now understands it - but one rather does not. It's the worst form of not understanding: The one in which one thinks one does understand.

An example:
God is good.

Cataphatic theology.

Another example:
God is not evil.

Again cataphatic theology.

Actually, if evil is the exclusion or privation of good, then: not-evil = good. Both propositions are equivalent, though one is 'negative', talking about what God is not and the other positive, talking about what God is, the propositional content is arguably the same.

If you go by the definitions as given by Cpt. Farel, then there is no difference between cataphatic and apophatic theology, as all negative statements can be transformed, logically, into positive statments.

Apophatic theology denies both statements, the negative as well as the positive by positing that it's neither exactly right to say that God is good, nor that he is not-evil, because God surpasses our merely human understanding of being good or not-evil. God transcends our human understanding of 'goodness' he is 'super-good', if anything and 'super' here means simply 'above', to signify that he is above being good as humans are able to understand it.

Apophatic theology is thus telling us what may not be said about God, rather than telling us what we can say that God is not. The latter is cataphatic theology.
Barsam Akhtar
Doomheim
#123 - 2015-03-10 19:15:18 UTC
Ms. Jenneth,

I have only recently been privileged to be allowed to serve as one of Her Majesty's capsuleer pilots, and so would readily admit that my contact with the other peoples of New Eden to be largely limited.

However, I find in your writings a rare capacity for understanding our ways that avoids painting us as wild caricatures of ourselves, and a sensitivity of the soul that New Eden would be a better place for emulating.

I have greatly enjoyed your writings so far and eagerly await the next parts.

Warm regards,
Barsam Akhtar
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#124 - 2015-03-10 21:09:50 UTC
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
Well, I really tried to avoid these simplistic definitions. They really seem to shed light on what is meant, as one thinks one now understands it - but one rather does not. It's the worst form of not understanding: The one in which one thinks one does understand.

An example:
God is good.

Cataphatic theology.

Another example:
God is not evil.

Again cataphatic theology.

Actually, if evil is the exclusion or privation of good, then: not-evil = good. Both propositions are equivalent, though one is 'negative', talking about what God is not and the other positive, talking about what God is, the propositional content is arguably the same.

If you go by the definitions as given by Cpt. Farel, then there is no difference between cataphatic and apophatic theology, as all negative statements can be transformed, logically, into positive statments.


I beg to... disagree.


- God is good, or God is not evil (=good) is indeed cataphatic. Merely inverting logic postulates...

- God can not be defined by Evil / Evil is not part of God. Is apophatic.



Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
Apophatic theology denies both statements, the negative as well as the positive by positing that it's neither exactly right to say that God is good, nor that he is not-evil, because God surpasses our merely human understanding of being good or not-evil. God transcends our human understanding of 'goodness' he is 'super-good', if anything and 'super' here means simply 'above', to signify that he is above being good as humans are able to understand it.

Apophatic theology is thus telling us what may not be said about God, rather than telling us what we can say that God is not. The latter is cataphatic theology.


That is exactly what I had in mind, in any case...
Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#125 - 2015-03-10 23:32:26 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
Apophatic theology is thus telling us what may not be said about God, rather than telling us what we can say that God is not. The latter is cataphatic theology.


That is exactly what I had in mind, in any case...

It's not what you said, though. You defined 'apophatic or negative theology' as "defining God through what God is not, rather than what it is". And the latter is exactly saying what God is not to the degree that the sentences that say what God is not allow you to single God out amongst all other things. And that would suppose that God is definable... which at least apophatic theology denies axiomatically. Even cataphatic theology doesn't head out for a definition of God, but merely for describing God in human terms, aware of the limitations of those.

By the way, "God can not be defined by Evil" seems to be a legit example of a sentence of apophatic theology (And it is - as expected - in direct conflict with the definition of 'negative theology' as "defining God through what God is not", as it denies the definability: 'by evil' could just be exchanged with 'by x' and it'd not change much, save for giving the sentence a greater generality.).

"Evil is not part of God" on the other hand is clearly cataphatic, as it is equivalent to saying: "God has no part that is evil."

Anyhow, I don't at all understand what you mean by 'inverting logic postulates': This is about placing negations and where you place them.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#126 - 2015-03-11 11:03:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
To me the definition works perfectly well... But as you pointed out it seems rather ambiguous and can be a source of mistakes...

Theology is not always my forte.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#127 - 2015-03-18 20:00:49 UTC
Entry Three

So, as will be obvious to a great many by now, I did not get admitted to PIE.

In hindsight, this was maybe a foregone conclusion: no matter how much, say, a knightly order might approve of a visiting heathen scholar, they're still not going to ask her to sign up-- particularly when she's barred from swinging a sword (demerit one) because she's a heathen (demerit two) who claims no actual loyalties at all (demerit three).

However, I've been invited to fly with them as an observer, and I've already had the opportunity to see their ground forces in action (even if that got maybe a little close for comfort). There's no subtext hinting that I'm unwelcome, just a sense that I wouldn't fit.

It's quite true. I wouldn't.

I've been invited instead into the Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque [SFRIM], possibly despite some misgivings by senior leadership. There's some history, there, but it's hard to tell whether that's affecting things, or what, or how.

Well, there may be one, clear thing. More on that later.

So far, SFRIM's culture seems more familial than martial. If PIE reflects the Imperial armed forces, it seems SFRIM reflects its civil society (at least in more liberal circles)-- though I do wonder how good a reflection either provides. Capsuleers are ... well, we sort of live in a world apart.

I'm looking forward to finding out.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#128 - 2015-03-18 21:18:24 UTC
Entry Four

One term I've run across a couple times, lately: "subhuman." This, it turns out, is maybe a case of the universal translator not getting all the nuances across.

"Subhuman" is one of those words that strikes a heathen foreigner like me, on first hearing, as a slur. It maybe doesn't help that it seems to be mostly used by the most conservative of the faithful, who seemingly don't much care whether foreigners take offense or not.

It turns out that it's a sort of ... term of art? At least in certain circles.

It doesn't mean "less than human," or even "less-human."

Rather, it means, essentially, "lesser human," or "lower human," one who is not of the elect, the Amarr.

This might not be all that much more comforting, being as most of the orthodox seem to believe such beings stand condemned before God by default, and will be judged harshly, and cast from God's kingdom in the hereafter into whatever torments await.

It's apparently not intended to be a slight on our status as "humans," though.
Vizage
Capital Allied Industrial Distribution
#129 - 2015-03-18 21:36:55 UTC
Perhaps releasing all of these entries at a later date to read in their totality might be a better format than this. I only say that as I have just barely managed to come out of my knee-jerk over the last entry and suspect many others might not get so far before posting.

I would hate to see this get buried in the usual IGS soup, as I have been following it with genuine interest.

-K. Amsel
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#130 - 2015-03-18 22:27:10 UTC
Vizage wrote:
Perhaps releasing all of these entries at a later date to read in their totality might be a better format than this. I only say that as I have just barely managed to come out of my knee-jerk over the last entry and suspect many others might not get so far before posting.

I would hate to see this get buried in the usual IGS soup, as I have been following it with genuine interest.

-K. Amsel

At some point, I may do so, Ms. Amsel. At the moment, though, the soup is something I'm prepared to deal with, and even depend on.

Criticism doesn't need to be kind, or measured, to be valuable, and spotting places where I misinterpret, misunderstand, or miss an important aspect is important to me.

Admittedly, I'm also planning on breaking up the flow of any major arguments that do get going by adding more material to argue over, or not.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#131 - 2015-03-18 22:39:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
You've understood it better than most, Ms. Jenneth.

All things serve one higher. There is a hierarchy. The word itself is perhaps a more negative one, I usually stick with just "lesser", but it is a core part of our beliefs. At least among those of us with traditional mindsets.
U'tah Arareb
Doomheim
#132 - 2015-03-18 22:48:00 UTC
Some image words regretfully never translate well, I am glad my poor attempt to explain that one to you bore some fruit , Ms. Jenneth.
Bourbon Limoges
Doomheim
#133 - 2015-03-18 22:59:09 UTC
What is the difference between one step from infinity and two steps from infinity? Or is the Amarrian superstitious entity finite, making this desperately primitive superstitious formulation not quite as implausibly silly as it sounds?
U'tah Arareb
Doomheim
#134 - 2015-03-18 23:18:15 UTC
Bourbon Limoges wrote:
What is the difference between one step from infinity and two steps from infinity? Or is the Amarrian superstitious entity finite, making this desperately primitive superstitious formulation not quite as implausibly silly as it sounds?



Mr. Limoges,

I ask only that you respect Ms. Jenneths own exploration here. This is a testament in her own learning. Treat it as such, please.
Bourbon Limoges
Doomheim
#135 - 2015-03-19 00:04:53 UTC
The Apologist has presented her observations in a Public forum. If neither the Apologist nor her corporate associates wish her observations Criticized, more Private conversations may be in order. In Public, Criticism is the touchstone of Liberty. All Obsidian Eagle Scouts are sworn to champion Liberty. It is the second line of our chant:

Spread your wings, my Federation! Soar! Soar! Soar!
Cry Liberty, my Federation! More! More! More!

I recently Criticized a Blood Raider's assertion that the lives of his slaves had no meaning. I see no reason to treat one facially offensive superstitious paradigm differently from another. To do so would violate Equality. All Obsidian Eagle Scouts are sworn to uphold Equality.

Obsidian, for Justice!
Obsidian, for Equality!
Obsidian, for the Family of Man!

Let fly eagles - on silver wings!
Let fly eagles - Queen Rouvenor sings!
Soar! Soar! Soar!

Frankly, the chant of a Gallente youth group strikes me as a greater expression of love for the human soul than hateful superstitions which try to balance oppression on pinheads that fail to grasp the rudimentary properties of infinity. You are nothing but bullies, and should be ashamed of calling yourselves spiritual.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#136 - 2015-03-19 00:40:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Ms. Arareb:

Please let Mr. Limoges say what he chooses.

He disapproves of my work. Very well. So do some Amarr.

Respect has to be earned, and there is nothing inherently respectable about what I am doing. I could easily be, or become, what he accuses me of being.

If I am to make this work, I won't be able to depend on status granted me as a seeker. Some cultures respect that sort of pilgrimage, but others do not.

Please let him decide when, if ever, I, or my work, has earned the respect you have shown me.

And thank you.




Mr. Limoges:

Those are your judgments to make.

I welcome criticism. It will help me spot places where I've missed something, angles I hadn't looked at, gaps in my understanding.

Please forgive me if I don't answer every criticism, though. I expect to get plenty, over time, and my energy is limited.

To your previous question: I'm not sure whether the Amarr consider their God infinite, or just ineffable and, probably, unimaginably vast (vaster than the universe, very likely, which still has a lot of space between it and "infinite").

Also, if they do consider God infinite, yours is the sort of question it seems like student theologians might enjoy giving each other headaches with. I doubt they've got the same kinds of conclusions in mind, though.
U'tah Arareb
Doomheim
#137 - 2015-03-19 00:49:35 UTC  |  Edited by: U'tah Arareb
Quote:
Ms. Arareb:

Please let Mr. Arareb say what he chooses



Mr Who?!

~chuckles ~

As you wish Ms. Jenneth, I simply felt a need to respond to what I percived as ..

"Bullying"

not meant in any way to imply you were incapable or unwilling to address it yourself .
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#138 - 2015-03-19 00:55:41 UTC
U'tah Arareb wrote:
Quote:
Ms. Arareb:

Please let Mr. Arareb say what he chooses



Mr Who?!

~chuckles ~

As you wish Ms. Jenneth, I simply felt a need to respond to what I percived as ..

"Bullying"

not meant in any way to imply you were incapable or unwilling to address it yourself .

Ah. Typos will be the death of me. Done in by embarrassment.

Corrected.

I do appreciate your concern, but ... well, even if bullying were his aim, it's not like it's going to let up.

This is the IGS. As much as I enjoy it, it's sort of a wilderness. Better that I grow a thick hide and sharp teeth than that I have to be protected all the time.
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#139 - 2015-03-19 00:58:55 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:

This might not be all that much more comforting, being as most of the orthodox seem to believe such beings stand condemned before God by default, and will be judged harshly, and cast from God's kingdom in the hereafter into whatever torments await.


Until you joined SFRIM, you stood to inherit a place in Upper Hell, the Hell of the Righteous Non-Chosen, a place where God does not cause people to suffer and where man is free to accomplish all that can be accomplished without the divine light to guide him. Even so, you would have gazed up at the blood-splattered golden towers of Paradise, ever denied you, with some regret.

Now that you have joined SFRIM, however, a foul cult of Molok the Deceiver worshipers who desecrate Temples to the Red God, you stand utterly under the wrath of God. God hates you. And at the Judgement, he will only laugh as the sefrim carry you down to Lower Hell, where you will suffer pain and agony for millions and billions and trillions of years and at the end of that, in those rare moments you can string together a few conscious thoughts amidst the pain, you will be horrified by the knowledge that all that time is but a mere point on the infinity of suffering that still awaits you.
U'tah Arareb
Doomheim
#140 - 2015-03-19 01:02:09 UTC
it should be noted that Nauplius, acknowledged by the Empire as a Heretic, in no way speaks for the Orthodoxy.