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If SP isn't important...
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Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#41 - 2015-03-17 21:44:42 UTC
speaking from experience IDLE GUNS had a 10m SP req, and tbh we didn't always stick with that. Plus we had a training corp called IDLE NEWBIES, and we had a few corps in our alliance that didn't have that requirement. a requirement like that doesn't exclude too many players, and it usually means players have some experience in EVE and plan to stick around. Contrast that with a corp that accepts anyone and ends up with a whole bunch of inactive members because their trial ran out.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#42 - 2015-03-18 03:01:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Gimme Sake
After spending 5 months in this game I can tell you SP matter. A huge lot. There are very little options and choices of gameplay compared to the variety the game offers to high SP characters. Yes you can fly a point frigate from day one bla bla bla but it ends up being a tedious grind waiting for skills to train until you can finally pilot a somehow competitive fit and that only inside a fleet or gang. Pve you might get away without all skills maxed but pvp, where every little detail counts it makes a huge difference, not mentioning you have to subtract lack of experience from your, already, low SP handicap.

Sure it matters not that much when you're part from a huge fleet like Brave fields but for players preferring small gangs/corporations/ a close circle of friends type of environment it is very restrictive.

This is the reality in all sorts of pvp environment, not only combat. Although I have little interest in mining I suppose it is hard for a new player to compete with a skiff and its gang of alts devouring a belt in a few minutes, more so he has to constantly scan for other sort of "friendly educative" threats looming on d-scan. And so the story goes for industry based new toons etc.

And also, as if SP were not enough, it is not only other bitter vet players you have to compete with, as a newb, but also their army of alts. Scamming alt, ganking alt, links alt, scouting alt, forum posting alt, avoxing alt, spying alt, brave newbs alt, wife alt, mother in law alt etc. The gape you have to fill doesn't reduce only to years of training and a new player access to exactly the same content as the entity mentioned above.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2015-03-18 03:12:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Gallowmere Rorschach
Scira Crimson wrote:
Because if you are a "master 3" player you have only like ~50% combat effectivness compared to a "master 5" player, basically rendering you useless.

A lot of people will deny this fact, because they are ignorant of math.

If you do 10% more damage and have 10% more EHP your combat power is at least 21% higher.
There are tons of variables which stack with each other.

CapMax * CapRegen = sustain ^2
damage * attackspeed * targetspeed = damage^3
sustain^2 * maxHP = tank ^3
cpu * powergrid = modul
modul = damage * shield
etc

and not to forget:

T2 = 1 / 0 cost effectivness compared to meta <5 and meta >5

If you dont have T2 weapons, you are 100% excluded from PvP (unless you are an overconfident dickhead who thinks he owns the world)

In my opinion:

Combat power = 15% player skill + 85% offline skill

If you have PERFECT playerskills and a 2 month old character you will run away from other pilots 99,5% of all the time. (because not engaging a possible target will always be the right choice)

So coming back to the question: why should corporations bother with heavily gimped players?

I can fully understand them.

PS.:

Though I absolutly despise the current skillsystem and imo its one of the biggest game design mistakes in gaming history, I COULD ACTUALLY arrange with it.
But there is one thing that needs to be fixed: Get rid of all those Requirement Vs.
They are annoying as hell(when you need 1 month of training just to be able to get a T2)

If you have IV skills compared to V skill you are at a major disadvantage anyway(5% is HUUUGE in an PvP game!)... No need to exclude beginner from T2s...

If this one thing gets fixed I can say the skillsystem is "somewhat ok and bearable"

When I bring 50-500% more players, because I have no problem making a newbie doctrine, the math suddenly turns in my favor. The only times that SP functions as you want it to here, is in 1v1 combat (hahahahahahahahahaha), unplanned wormhole shenanigans, and in fights like B-R where the system just cannot handle any more people.

*grumblegrumble*dirtyblobbers*grumble*
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#44 - 2015-03-18 03:26:30 UTC

[/quote]
When I bring 50-500% more players, because I have no problem making a newbie doctrine, the math suddenly turns in my favor. The only times that SP functions as you want it to here, is in 1v1 combat (hahahahahahahahahaha), unplanned wormhole shenanigans, and in fights like B-R where the system just cannot handle any more people.

*grumblegrumble*dirtyblobbers*grumble*[/quote]


...and that's exactly when the high sp fleet warps away and docks.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2015-03-18 03:30:20 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:

...and that's exactly when the high sp fleet warps away and docks.

Looks like they should drop their SP requirement then.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#46 - 2015-03-18 03:36:03 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:
but PVP, where every little detail counts it makes a huge difference, not mentioning you have to subtract lack of experience from your, already, low SP handicap.
I have about 5M SP in combat skills. The rest is in mining and industry.

I had a tactic in High Sec wars, we didn't have any logi pilots, so in our little 10-15 vs 10-15, I would jump first with a Cyclone to be primary, active tank / speed tank and try add some damage.
Most of my low slots and probably a rig were fitting modules, the guns were T1.

I have come across quite a few people who have the SP and the experience but are ... well ... not of the highest calibre.

It doesn't take experience or skill points.
It takes a bit of grey matter.
EVE is a success in this regard.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2015-03-18 03:47:14 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:

useless


Hey look, another one.
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#48 - 2015-03-18 04:10:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Gimme Sake
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

I have about 5M SP in combat skills. The rest is in mining and industry.

I had a tactic in High Sec wars, we didn't have any logi pilots, so in our little 10-15 vs 10-15, I would jump first with a Cyclone to be primary, active tank / speed tank and try add some damage.
Most of my low slots and probably a rig were fitting modules, the guns were T1.

I have come across quite a few people who have the SP and the experience but are ... well ... not of the highest calibre.

It doesn't take experience or skill points.
It takes a bit of grey matter.
EVE is a success in this regard.


Fitting skills are a bigger issue than effective combat skills. Not to mention some have time consuming skill V prerequisites and you can't solely train only fitting skills.


P.S.

High Sec wars are a type of sushi I don't know much or enough about to formulate a valid opinion on.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#49 - 2015-03-18 04:34:10 UTC
Ned Thomas wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:

useless


Hey look, another one.



Another one what?

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#50 - 2015-03-18 04:50:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Mephiztopheleze
Dave Stark wrote:
new players can buy characters just like everyone else...


this kind of 'advice' keeps popping up and it's a truly awful, terrible thing to say to any new player.

A character worth buying, with a decent selection of basic fitting and core skills along with a few ship and weapons skills is going to run somewhere north of ~10b ISK.

For an already confused new player, outside of scamming that much ISK, their only option is to purchase PLEX to then sell on the open market for ISK with which to buy a character.

At a current price of around 800m ISK, that's 13 PLEX which would run somewhere around the US$250 mark.

US$250 is non-trifling amount of money for most people, especially on top of the subscription fee and still requiring a ship.

Seriously, don't ever tell new players to "go and buy a character". Chances are they're still making their minds up about EVE and this isn't the kind of 'advice' that most people would appreciate.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Claud Tiberius
#51 - 2015-03-18 06:20:50 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Kalishka Ashkulf wrote:
Then why do some corps have it as a requirement?


because some corps don't want to recruit new players.

because some corps fly doctrines that require a high amount of sp.

because they can have it as a requirement.

just because sp doesn't matter, doesn't mean corps have to recruit every newbro and his dog that joins up because they watched "this is eve".

Low SP != Low experience. The new character could be an alt....

Fact of the matter is, SP does matter to some corps because they have their own requirements e.g. doctrine fleets. To say that "SP don't matter" is vague - define who.

Further more, SP effect almost every aspect of the game, to an extent that some things are unavailable until you have the SP.

If you want to say SP don't matter you should say why.

Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end.
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#52 - 2015-03-18 06:32:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Sean Parisi
SP IS important. Just not as important as many newer players make it out to be.

A group if high SP characters will typically destroy another group of low SP characters. However, because those players are using smaller cheaper ships that can typically still win an attrition war. Focus firing and using E-War to mitigate certain advantages.
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#53 - 2015-03-18 06:40:55 UTC
Claud Tiberius wrote:
Fact of the matter is, SP does matter to some corps because they have their own requirements e.g. doctrine fleets.


Most corps/alliances worth joining will have some kind of 'complete newbie' option for all their doctrines. Usually it's a T1 tackle or EWAR frigate.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Mithandra
B.O.P Supplication For Glorious
Dracarys.
#54 - 2015-03-18 08:44:40 UTC
The amount of SP you have is important. Anyone who says it isn't is just rehashing the old "its not the size that's important darling" argument.

However SP isn't THE most important thing.

The ability to learn, to retain knowledge, to lose ships gaining experience; these things are far more important.

Recruiting based purely on SP is always going to be problematic, especially with characters being bought and sold all the time, with each main having more than one alt, and with most pilots having more than one account etc. The amount of SP a character has no longer works as a yardstick of worth.

A lot of Corps (mine included) have a minimum SP requirement to ensure that Pilots who apply can fly doctrine ships, and woe betide the new pilot who turns up to a CTA flying non doctrine. It's a tiny bit short sighted in my opinion, as you tend to filter out new blood which to be honest is something the game needs badly; new people approaching eve the same way us bitter vets did back in 2003.

A lot of Corps have a minimum SP requirement to filter out potential corps thieves. This doesn't work. I'd elaborate, but we all know it doesn't work.

And then there is the KB. A LOT of corps eat , sleep and breathe KB's. They seem to think that the KB is the defacto yardstick of worth in EvE. Having a killboard infested with low skill ship losses seems to be the EvE social equivalent of telling everyone you have an STD. Once again this is short sighted, but it probably won't go away any time soon.

Eve is a game full of functioning paranoids, sociopaths, borderline schizophrenics, drama queens, manic depressives and pilots with other conditions that would make even Freud sit up and go "Mein Gott!!!". The fact that we get new pilots at all never ceases to amaze me.

Eve is the dark haired, totally hot emo gothchild of the gaming community
Chenguang Hucel-Ge
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2015-03-18 09:54:33 UTC
Back in the days (before unlimited queue) SP was some sort of wear'n'tear value, now it's just general capabilities. Plus, due to how EVE works, certain minimum can't be met with trial accounts. And people don't like trials (Because they are burning out like hell, in many cases they never coming back once trial is over, thus got nothing to lose).
Not to mention that many small corps expect you to be able to help in different roles (Progressive miners DO bash structures, for example).

Aside from that, even when it's written, it's not necessary. There are guys called recruiters, talk with them. If it doesn't work and corp is 300 chars or less - talk to CEO directly. Back in the days I did that with one null corp (Stating 15 mil SP minimal, I believe). After a bit of chat I've got simple proposition — They'll take me if I'll buy cyno book and learn it to IV so I could help with logistics. I learned it, but then simply decided that I'm not ready for it.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#56 - 2015-03-18 12:43:45 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Most of my low slots and probably a rig were fitting modules, the guns were T1.

It doesn't take experience or skill points.
It takes a bit of grey matter.
EVE is a success in this regard.
Fitting skills are a bigger issue than effective combat skills. Not to mention some have time consuming skill V prerequisites and you can't solely train only fitting skills.
P.S. High Sec wars are a type of sushi I don't know much or enough about to formulate a valid opinion on.
This is my point. We were doing well when we were so new that we did no even have our fitting skills trained.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#57 - 2015-03-18 22:32:13 UTC
You can get Mastery level 4 for a battleship in around 1 year at 16 million SP (no remaps). SP is not everything. I have alts with under a 4th of the SP I have that can fly some ships better than I can at 86M SP.

For smaller ships you hit higher mastery levels sooner.


But it can be agreed that on the one hand no SP requirement means you get noobs who don't sub and alt spies. The SP requirement to get around that means the noobs are stuck in the already lacking NPE. In spite of the great improvements made to it.

Corporations that cater to noobs get wardecced by highsec greifbears. If they leave highsec they become a body count for a larger coalition.

I guess the best thing to do here is go on mastery tabs and wait for nullsec to get shaken up by the coming changes.

Meanwhile, this is something only the players are going to be able to fix, meaning we have to drop the "muh ISK/stats" long enough to care about the game as much as we claim to.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Scira Crimson
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#58 - 2015-03-23 08:10:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Scira Crimson
Quote:
When I bring 50-500% more players, because I have no problem making a newbie doctrine, the math suddenly turns in my favor. The only times that SP functions as you want it to here, is in 1v1 combat (hahahahahahahahahaha), unplanned wormhole shenanigans, and in fights like B-R where the system just cannot handle any more people.

*grumblegrumble*dirtyblobbers*grumble*



If, If, If!

You cannot compare apples with beans. Of course 100 low skilled player will win vs 30 High Skilled player, but this is not hte point.

Its the "overall relation" of fairness. You have to view all the non-extreme cases where SP actually make a difference!

Why should 80 players with "100% SP" win against 100 players with "80% SP", even though the 100 player had superior setup?
How is this justifyable? Because the 80 people were offline longer?

And as I said: People HEAVILY UNDERESTIMATE the stacking numbers.

But obviously most people will prefer getting an unfair advantage than having meaningful competittion.

Dumbed by interestes... the bane of humanity. Stops people from thinking rational.


PS.:

The argument "bringing more people or get more skill" is nonsense as the high SP player can also bring more people and be skilled, making this argument invalid.
The point stands: The SP system makes competition extremly unfair for beginners. This is something we can all agree on I think. The point is, that you want it to be like this, because you want the advantage!
Going ahead: the argument "we also had low SP one day" is also BS, because as I said: "relative competition".
10 years ago you certainly could win fights easier with T1 because all other people had T1.

what I am asking for is a catch up mechanism for SP. My proposal is to get rid of all those low/mid tier Skill 5 requirements for T2 and change it to 4. This will make a huuuge difference, but those with Skill 5 would still be >>considerably<< stronger (as 5+% is a lot in competitive PvP!)
Piter Bakunin
#59 - 2015-03-23 11:47:12 UTC
Scira Crimson wrote:
Quote:
When I bring 50-500% more players, because I have no problem making a newbie doctrine, the math suddenly turns in my favor. The only times that SP functions as you want it to here, is in 1v1 combat (hahahahahahahahahaha), unplanned wormhole shenanigans, and in fights like B-R where the system just cannot handle any more people.

*grumblegrumble*dirtyblobbers*grumble*



If, If, If!

You cannot compare apples with beans. Of course 100 low skilled player will win vs 30 High Skilled player, but this is not hte point.

Its the "overall relation" of fairness. You have to view all the non-extreme cases where SP actually make a difference!

Why should 80 players with "100% SP" win against 100 players with "80% SP", even though the 100 player had superior setup?
How is this justifyable? Because the 80 people were offline longer?

And as I said: People HEAVILY UNDERESTIMATE the stacking numbers.

But obviously most people will prefer getting an unfair advantage than having meaningful competittion.

Dumbed by interestes... the bane of humanity. Stops people from thinking rational.


PS.:

The argument "bringing more people or get more skill" is nonsense as the high SP player can also bring more people and be skilled, making this argument invalid.
The point stands: The SP system makes competition extremly unfair for beginners. This is something we can all agree on I think. The point is, that you want it to be like this, because you want the advantage!
Going ahead: the argument "we also had low SP one day" is also BS, because as I said: "relative competition".
10 years ago you certainly could win fights easier with T1 because all other people had T1.

what I am asking for is a catch up mechanism for SP. My proposal is to get rid of all those low/mid tier Skill 5 requirements for T2 and change it to 4. This will make a huuuge difference, but those with Skill 5 would still be >>considerably<< stronger (as 5+% is a lot in competitive PvP!)


I've seen this rant of yours in a few threads now and I finally feel compelled to comment.

Skillpoints are not your problem, your attitude is your problem. You defeat yourself before you ever undock, because you believe that you cannot win. CCP could change the requirements for skills as you suggest, and you will complain that you don't have enough SP to compete. Give you SP and you will not have enough ISK, give you ISK and you will not have enough friends and so on.
Kalishka Ashkulf
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2015-03-23 11:59:28 UTC
From looking at this thread, I recognise and accept that a certain amount of SP is required to fly doctrine ships. However, I will argue at the direction of SP. (I'm purely playing devils advocate here) say I was a Miner, and I wanted to join a PVP corp. Their requirement was 10mil SP, I have 30mil SP (hypothetically). In said hypothetical, how would the response be to that? I ask of such a hypothetical, simply so I can understand a little more. If anyone has any other down to earth examples, I'm all ears Smile

Why, thank you, Thing!