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If SP isn't important...
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Amarrchecko
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2015-03-17 11:53:26 UTC
Mikael Menethil wrote:
"SP isn't that important"
The eternal lie told to all newbs, to make them risk their ships.

Combat wise you are gimped.
The utility skills work almost the same. You will disrupt my warp and slow me down. And thats about it before you die.

But don't listen to me, you go try, girl!


I'd go as far as to say that SP always matters, not just in combat.

How are you going to make a living, or have much fun at all, playing as a market trader with a max of 5 sell orders and no remote market skills and a hauler that can move 150m3 per trip? Or as a PVEer who is doing tutorial missions and ratting in .7 systems to make isk? Or as a miner who is mining veld in a frigate with t1 mining lasers? Etc.

When people say that skills don't matter, what they actually mean is that if if you have some decent number of SP and they're focused on a specialty, then you can perform that specialty pretty well even compared to someone who has been playing nonstop with optimized training plans for the last 10 years. It definitely does not mean that SP aren't super important to basically everything that anyone wants to do in Eve.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#22 - 2015-03-17 12:04:30 UTC
Amarrchecko wrote:
Mikael Menethil wrote:
"SP isn't that important"
The eternal lie told to all newbs, to make them risk their ships.

Combat wise you are gimped.
The utility skills work almost the same. You will disrupt my warp and slow me down. And thats about it before you die.

But don't listen to me, you go try, girl!


I'd go as far as to say that SP always matters, not just in combat.

How are you going to make a living, or have much fun at all, playing as a market trader with a max of 5 sell orders and no remote market skills and a hauler that can move 150m3 per trip? Or as a PVEer who is doing tutorial missions and ratting in .7 systems to make isk? Or as a miner who is mining veld in a frigate with t1 mining lasers? Etc.

When people say that skills don't matter, what they actually mean is that if if you have some decent number of SP and they're focused on a specialty, then you can perform that specialty pretty well even compared to someone who has been playing nonstop with optimized training plans for the last 10 years. It definitely does not mean that SP aren't super important to basically everything that anyone wants to do in Eve.


There's very few things that can't be done with less than 5 mil SP.
Mikael Menethil
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2015-03-17 12:14:50 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Mikael Menethil wrote:
"SP isn't that important"
The eternal lie told to all newbs, to make them risk their ships.

Combat wise you are gimped.
The utility skills work almost the same. You will disrupt my warp and slow me down. And thats about it before you die.

But don't listen to me, you go try, girl!


SP isn't really important, what IS important is having active brain cells and the will to put in effort to learn, adapt and overcome. You're mixing up the former with the latter.


Yes, yes...I have to overload my brain cells too for the T1 weapons to deal more damage and be on par with my enemy's T2.
Same goes for the drones, shields, sensors, speed, tracking, explosion radius etc etc etc.
Christopher AET
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2015-03-17 12:26:25 UTC
All MMO's have newbie content and end game content. In eve this is player generated and SP requirements is one of the ways this manifests itself. Working as intended.

I drain ducks of their moisture for sustenance.
Kalishka Ashkulf
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2015-03-17 12:52:58 UTC
Christopher AET wrote:
All MMO's have newbie content and end game content. In eve this is player generated and SP requirements is one of the ways this manifests itself. Working as intended.


I wasn't aware Eve had end content, what is this content you speak of?

Why, thank you, Thing!
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#26 - 2015-03-17 13:18:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
Setting minimum standards to screen recruits might sound like a good idea, but it's a losing proposition in a game where it helps to bring more ships. Always bring all the things.

The reason "because doctrine ships" is paper thin, since creating a newbie doctrine eliminates that mental block. (if you don't take newbies because lack of newbie doctrine, then make a newbie doctrine).

I'm not sure how worthwhile the rest of this post is, since what I'm talking about is a paradigm shift... but I'll attempt it anyway. A no-scrub policy doesn't mean the behavior isn't scrubby.

It seems like a good idea, but aside from my first point that EVE rewards moar ships, what's the message when you say recruits must have X million SP, and a PVP record. You must have dwelled in your basement for X months, for X hours per day, with X percent kill/death ratio.

I'm not looking to call anyone out, but when the topic is high SP characters and recruitment... and killboards... who do you think of?

You can try to out-nerd everyone in EVE, but you'll end up outnumbered.

It's a bad case of trying too hard to be the cool kids. And tragically, ironically, amusingly, it makes you the opposite.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#27 - 2015-03-17 13:21:25 UTC
Kalishka Ashkulf wrote:
Then why do some corps have it as a requirement?

Been off for a few months and now I'm back (hello all Big smile). Anyway, been looking at Corps to join, many of them having a SP barrier. Unfortunately, I took my break very early on in my Eve career, so my SP is a tad on the low side. Of course, I've put a bunch of skills on my training and hoping to beef myself up a little haha. That said, many people say SP doesn't matter so much in the game, yet it seems like a fence when looking for Corps to join?


because its a way to say how long you've been training for, I just looked at an old account and I have a 5 yearold alt on it with 53k sp, so why age is like "awesome he can do lots of stuff" SP says "you cant do jack"

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
Dave Stark
#28 - 2015-03-17 13:42:57 UTC
Mikael Menethil wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Mikael Menethil wrote:
"SP isn't that important"
The eternal lie told to all newbs, to make them risk their ships.

Combat wise you are gimped.
The utility skills work almost the same. You will disrupt my warp and slow me down. And thats about it before you die.

But don't listen to me, you go try, girl!


SP isn't really important, what IS important is having active brain cells and the will to put in effort to learn, adapt and overcome. You're mixing up the former with the latter.


Yes, yes...I have to overload my brain cells too for the T1 weapons to deal more damage and be on par with my enemy's T2.
Same goes for the drones, shields, sensors, speed, tracking, explosion radius etc etc etc.








if you know your opponent outclasses you in every way - why are you engaging them?
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2015-03-17 13:53:55 UTC
I live in a WH... you NEED to be able to scan, so lets say 1.5mil. Then add in a very basic combat ship (frig) with a point, tank (shield and armour), prop mod, some fitting skill, gunnery, drones wont hurt...

Then add on the inevitable mining skills, missiles (or gunnery...the opposite of above) and you come to... 6-10mil skill points...

And wow and behold thats normally the minimum...

More is better. But to be able to contribute AND in turn have fun and not die instantly with half your ship unfit or full of mining lasers.... a skill requirement makes sense.

No Worries
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2015-03-17 14:07:24 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Mikael Menethil wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Mikael Menethil wrote:
"SP isn't that important"
The eternal lie told to all newbs, to make them risk their ships.

Combat wise you are gimped.
The utility skills work almost the same. You will disrupt my warp and slow me down. And thats about it before you die.

But don't listen to me, you go try, girl!


SP isn't really important, what IS important is having active brain cells and the will to put in effort to learn, adapt and overcome. You're mixing up the former with the latter.


Yes, yes...I have to overload my brain cells too for the T1 weapons to deal more damage and be on par with my enemy's T2.
Same goes for the drones, shields, sensors, speed, tracking, explosion radius etc etc etc.








if you know your opponent outclasses you in every way - why are you engaging them?



Because no one ever learns how to pick their fights?
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2015-03-17 14:13:04 UTC
Ned Thomas wrote:


Because no one ever learns how to pick their fights?


Whats hard about picking a fight?

" Oi noob meat me at da sun n il pew you well good like"

"Ok guys if he takes the bait il open the Cyno in a few seconds..."

No Worries
Josef Djugashvilis
#32 - 2015-03-17 14:17:30 UTC
A determined player will always use any given amount of sp better than the likes of me.

This is not a signature.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2015-03-17 16:38:25 UTC
Don't forget the context of SP in the topic, which is recruitment.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Syrilian
Doomheim
#34 - 2015-03-17 16:46:22 UTC
I would say the importance of SP depends on what you do and why some corps would want to know your SP. There are simply some things you can't do with a certain amount of SP especially in combat.

I think it is better to say that "SP only matters so much" rather than saying it doesn't matter at all. Yes you can technically do anything in EVE no matter your SP. Doing it well is an entirely different thing.
Hengle Teron
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#35 - 2015-03-17 16:49:30 UTC
It's just an imaginary filter
Kiandoshia
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2015-03-17 16:54:45 UTC
Yarda Black wrote:
Dear PL,

I just started playing and want to join a cool corp. Your alliance is very famous so I'm apply-ing to corp X.

Regards,

n00by Black.


Seriously tho; every corp has its own plan. In EVE you play with spaceships to fulfill those plans. The type of spaceship you can fly is dictated by skillpoints. For some corps that means you need 1 million SP to fit in, for others a 100.

The reason that skill points don't matter a whole lot in combat is based on the fact that a warpdisruptor is a warpdisruptor (for example). Whether its fitted to a 500K condor or a 100 bill titan, if you activate it on me, I'm not warping.

You in your lowly condor grabbing me will outperform a 200 million SP dude if I escape from him. The difference is the number of ships you can put that warpdisruptor on.


A warp disruptor isn't actually going to stop a titan from warping.

Sorry, I felt like somebody had to say it ^^
Scira Crimson
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#37 - 2015-03-17 19:17:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Scira Crimson
Because if you are a "master 3" player you have only like ~50% combat effectivness compared to a "master 5" player, basically rendering you useless.

A lot of people will deny this fact, because they are ignorant of math.

If you do 10% more damage and have 10% more EHP your combat power is at least 21% higher.
There are tons of variables which stack with each other.

CapMax * CapRegen = sustain ^2
damage * attackspeed * targetspeed = damage^3
sustain^2 * maxHP = tank ^3
cpu * powergrid = modul
modul = damage * shield
etc

and not to forget:

T2 = 1 / 0 cost effectivness compared to meta <5 and meta >5

If you dont have T2 weapons, you are 100% excluded from PvP (unless you are an overconfident dickhead who thinks he owns the world)

In my opinion:

Combat power = 15% player skill + 85% offline skill

If you have PERFECT playerskills and a 2 month old character you will run away from other pilots 99,5% of all the time. (because not engaging a possible target will always be the right choice)

So coming back to the question: why should corporations bother with heavily gimped players?

I can fully understand them.

PS.:

Though I absolutly despise the current skillsystem and imo its one of the biggest game design mistakes in gaming history, I COULD ACTUALLY arrange with it.
But there is one thing that needs to be fixed: Get rid of all those Requirement Vs.
They are annoying as hell(when you need 1 month of training just to be able to get a T2)

If you have IV skills compared to V skill you are at a major disadvantage anyway(5% is HUUUGE in an PvP game!)... No need to exclude beginner from T2s...

If this one thing gets fixed I can say the skillsystem is "somewhat ok and bearable"
Jenshae Chiroptera
#38 - 2015-03-17 19:40:50 UTC
Probably said before but I am being lazy today.

SP is a good general guide to how flexible a character is, how able they are to adjust to your strategies.
SP is also a show of commitment to a character. One that is raised just for ratting in Amarr space for example, suggest there is probably an alt behind it.
SP usually comes with a reputation that can be traced.

Corps do their best to keep spies and traitors out.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2015-03-17 19:57:58 UTC
Scira Crimson wrote:
useless


That about sums up that post.
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
#40 - 2015-03-17 20:02:42 UTC
Speaking as someone who's handled recruitment for an active PVP corp that was both friendly to new players and had an SP requirement, I will shed some light on why this may be the case. Depending on the ammount of SP required it is very likely they expect you to have your core skills trained to a sufficient level so that you can reasonably fit your ships appropriately, and in the case of the folks I was recruiting for they also required that you have at least some hands on experience in PVP situations. In this case the SP requirement works two fold as it forces an arbitray length of time for you to have actually played the game and ensures that once you've reached that point you will have at least a hint of what you are doing.

Honestly being "new" in eve is also a fairly arbitrary label because you can really have a character for years and still be as green as a 2 week old character. It's all a matter of perspective. In case you were wondering we had 5-10 million SP as the requirement (it shifted around over the years as our needs demanded.)