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Pirate faction warfare
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JetStream Drenard
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#41 - 2015-03-14 16:25:24 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Standings should play more if a role in docking rights. i.e. - A player shoots at an Amarr militia member. Their standing to 24th crusade goes down. After a certain point they lose docking rights in systems owned by 24th Crusade. It would enhance low sec politics by adding stakes to third party support.

I always wondered why a guy with -10 to Quafe was able to dock in their stations. That, and why shooting pirate rats in pirate systems lead to CONCORD rewards. Shouldn't you shout CONCORD or Empire faction rats in pirate space and receive isk from pirate factions?

I see. That would make sense. CCP...
Vazkez
Doomheim
#42 - 2015-03-14 22:36:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Vazkez
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:
I have two issues with pirate factions joining.

1) Pirate faction ships are significantly better than the faction ships of the empires. This is offset by their relative rarity due to the grind required for the LP (although someone has gotten rich off all the Worms I see in low sec!). If the LP becomes easier to obtain (orbiting buttons) then there would need to be a rebalance as the pirate faction stuff plummets in price and everyone has them. It would probably kill off the markets for empire faction ships.

2) the same problems that plague the current FW scene would still exist. The majority of existing militia pilots are LP farmers playing the game simply to make LP and convert into ISK. The pilots who are actually fighting in their militias are trying to engage in sovereignty warfare (and gain LP for their efforts) despite the farmer hordes. If Pirates were introduced this situation would be duplicated. The ability to farm should be nerfed before expanding the flawed system elsewhere.

For example there is at least 1 rediculous system in our warzone where a Gallente group o-Plexes the system then the neighbouring Amarr group that no one ever see's in a fight d-Plex it down again taking turns and never fighting. It is very likely that these 2 corps are controlled by the same players or are at least colluding. All this does is makes them richer and the 'real' militias poorer for the increased completion for our LP redeemed goodies.

I would nerf farming in the following ways...

Dramatically reduce the LP rewards for D-Plexing regardless of Tier. Low risk = low reward

Dramatically boost the LP rewards for killing an I-HUB - it is the most risky activity in FW and requires a fleet so a large payout is needed to make sure each fleet member gets an adequate reward.

LP awards for kills against enemy militia relative to the value of the kill mail. This would reward PVP more and make it very costly for farmers to try and 'game' this system as it should cost them more money to fit the enemy ship and get it blown up then you are rewarded in LP.

No warp stabs permitted in Plexes, just like the cloak restriction, if you don't like a fight all you should need is D-scan and an align out!

We would see what effects that had before going further.




I agree with you. The current FW system needs polishing. LP payouts for killing someone are far too low. Plexing/capturing a system needs changing. Its so boring.

Edit: and stabs warp core stabs need banning in plexes too!
Tsobai Hashimoto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#43 - 2015-03-15 17:41:50 UTC
Sean Parisi wrote:
One issue is on average most players would swap to pirate factions for the better rewards (assumed) like snakes etc.



Yeah I wont be in Amarr FW the day Pirate FW comes out!!! Pirate

I NEED MORE DAREDEVILS!
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#44 - 2015-03-15 22:10:04 UTC
Vazkez wrote:
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:
I have two issues with pirate factions joining.

1) Pirate faction ships are significantly better than the faction ships of the empires. This is offset by their relative rarity due to the grind required for the LP (although someone has gotten rich off all the Worms I see in low sec!). If the LP becomes easier to obtain (orbiting buttons) then there would need to be a rebalance as the pirate faction stuff plummets in price and everyone has them. It would probably kill off the markets for empire faction ships.

2) the same problems that plague the current FW scene would still exist. The majority of existing militia pilots are LP farmers playing the game simply to make LP and convert into ISK. The pilots who are actually fighting in their militias are trying to engage in sovereignty warfare (and gain LP for their efforts) despite the farmer hordes. If Pirates were introduced this situation would be duplicated. The ability to farm should be nerfed before expanding the flawed system elsewhere.

For example there is at least 1 rediculous system in our warzone where a Gallente group o-Plexes the system then the neighbouring Amarr group that no one ever see's in a fight d-Plex it down again taking turns and never fighting. It is very likely that these 2 corps are controlled by the same players or are at least colluding. All this does is makes them richer and the 'real' militias poorer for the increased completion for our LP redeemed goodies.

I would nerf farming in the following ways...

Dramatically reduce the LP rewards for D-Plexing regardless of Tier. Low risk = low reward

Dramatically boost the LP rewards for killing an I-HUB - it is the most risky activity in FW and requires a fleet so a large payout is needed to make sure each fleet member gets an adequate reward.

LP awards for kills against enemy militia relative to the value of the kill mail. This would reward PVP more and make it very costly for farmers to try and 'game' this system as it should cost them more money to fit the enemy ship and get it blown up then you are rewarded in LP.

No warp stabs permitted in Plexes, just like the cloak restriction, if you don't like a fight all you should need is D-scan and an align out!

We would see what effects that had before going further.




I agree with you. The current FW system needs polishing. LP payouts for killing someone are far too low. Plexing/capturing a system needs changing. Its so boring.

Edit: and stabs warp core stabs need banning in plexes too!


You can blame goons for that / poor original implementation.A lot of things would be great if min maxers didn't abuse the living hell out of it. But that doesn't coincide with reality and as such going low is safer.
S810 Jr
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#45 - 2015-03-17 11:49:29 UTC
CCP did say a few years ago at fanfest that the back end was already in place to put pirate factions into FW.

As for those saying it would cause too much trouble to the pirate ship/implant market, that is easily solved. Don't give them a FW store or have very limited items in it. RP: they are not one of the big empires, therefore they don't have the industrial infrastructure (at least in empire space) to do the same as NPC empire militias.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#46 - 2015-03-17 11:53:02 UTC
S810 Jr wrote:
CCP did say a few years ago at fanfest that the back end was already in place to put pirate factions into FW.

As for those saying it would cause too much trouble to the pirate ship/implant market, that is easily solved. Don't give them a FW store or have very limited items in it. RP: they are not one of the big empires, therefore they don't have the industrial infrastructure (at least in empire space) to do the same as NPC empire militias.


but would this then be different lp to the mission lp? if your restricting you would need to have a seperate lp currecy for missions and fw, tbh it wouldnt sound fair because why should a carebear earn more for less risk than a fw'er?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
S810 Jr
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#47 - 2015-03-17 13:53:37 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
S810 Jr wrote:
CCP did say a few years ago at fanfest that the back end was already in place to put pirate factions into FW.

As for those saying it would cause too much trouble to the pirate ship/implant market, that is easily solved. Don't give them a FW store or have very limited items in it. RP: they are not one of the big empires, therefore they don't have the industrial infrastructure (at least in empire space) to do the same as NPC empire militias.


but would this then be different lp to the mission lp? if your restricting you would need to have a seperate lp currecy for missions and fw, tbh it wouldnt sound fair because why should a carebear earn more for less risk than a fw'er?


Current FW LP is only used in the NPC Militia corp LP store. Which you can also get by running missions for the NPC corp. So I don't get what you're picking at.

If you are in a pirate faction, you are a pirate. Make your ISK from your loot, not from orbiting a button in space and shooting NPCs. I.e. don't have a LP store for pirate factions would be my favourite idea.
Nameira Vanis-Tor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2015-03-17 14:00:35 UTC
S810 Jr wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
S810 Jr wrote:
CCP did say a few years ago at fanfest that the back end was already in place to put pirate factions into FW.

As for those saying it would cause too much trouble to the pirate ship/implant market, that is easily solved. Don't give them a FW store or have very limited items in it. RP: they are not one of the big empires, therefore they don't have the industrial infrastructure (at least in empire space) to do the same as NPC empire militias.


but would this then be different lp to the mission lp? if your restricting you would need to have a seperate lp currecy for missions and fw, tbh it wouldnt sound fair because why should a carebear earn more for less risk than a fw'er?


Current FW LP is only used in the NPC Militia corp LP store. Which you can also get by running missions for the NPC corp. So I don't get what you're picking at.

If you are in a pirate faction, you are a pirate. Make your ISK from your loot, not from orbiting a button in space and shooting NPCs. I.e. don't have a LP store for pirate factions would be my favourite idea.


Unfortunately that would probably mean the extinction of Pirate Faction Ships, as that is where they originate from by and large.
S810 Jr
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#49 - 2015-03-17 14:18:07 UTC
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:
S810 Jr wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
S810 Jr wrote:
CCP did say a few years ago at fanfest that the back end was already in place to put pirate factions into FW.

As for those saying it would cause too much trouble to the pirate ship/implant market, that is easily solved. Don't give them a FW store or have very limited items in it. RP: they are not one of the big empires, therefore they don't have the industrial infrastructure (at least in empire space) to do the same as NPC empire militias.


but would this then be different lp to the mission lp? if your restricting you would need to have a seperate lp currecy for missions and fw, tbh it wouldnt sound fair because why should a carebear earn more for less risk than a fw'er?


Current FW LP is only used in the NPC Militia corp LP store. Which you can also get by running missions for the NPC corp. So I don't get what you're picking at.

If you are in a pirate faction, you are a pirate. Make your ISK from your loot, not from orbiting a button in space and shooting NPCs. I.e. don't have a LP store for pirate factions would be my favourite idea.


Unfortunately that would probably mean the extinction of Pirate Faction Ships, as that is where they originate from by and large.


Pirate Faction ships originate from something that currently DOES NOT EXIST in the game? - a pirate NPC FW LP store.

The whole point of NOT having a pirate NPC FW LP store would be that bringing the pirate factions into FW would not change anything in the current way care bears bring pirate faction ships, mods, implants to market.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#50 - 2015-03-17 14:27:30 UTC
S810 Jr wrote:
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:
S810 Jr wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
S810 Jr wrote:
CCP did say a few years ago at fanfest that the back end was already in place to put pirate factions into FW.

As for those saying it would cause too much trouble to the pirate ship/implant market, that is easily solved. Don't give them a FW store or have very limited items in it. RP: they are not one of the big empires, therefore they don't have the industrial infrastructure (at least in empire space) to do the same as NPC empire militias.


but would this then be different lp to the mission lp? if your restricting you would need to have a seperate lp currecy for missions and fw, tbh it wouldnt sound fair because why should a carebear earn more for less risk than a fw'er?


Current FW LP is only used in the NPC Militia corp LP store. Which you can also get by running missions for the NPC corp. So I don't get what you're picking at.

If you are in a pirate faction, you are a pirate. Make your ISK from your loot, not from orbiting a button in space and shooting NPCs. I.e. don't have a LP store for pirate factions would be my favourite idea.


Unfortunately that would probably mean the extinction of Pirate Faction Ships, as that is where they originate from by and large.


Pirate Faction ships originate from something that currently DOES NOT EXIST in the game? - a pirate NPC FW LP store.

The whole point of NOT having a pirate NPC FW LP store would be that bringing the pirate factions into FW would not change anything in the current way care bears bring pirate faction ships, mods, implants to market.



but pirates not earning lp would mean a very low income from fw meaning there is no real advantage in adding them into the system at all, tbh your not going to fund pvp with loot from kills.

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#51 - 2015-03-17 15:50:16 UTC
Ya, very few people are going to do FW just for the lolRP of fighting for the internet space honor of their favorite internet space faction. Honor aside, with no financial gain to be had from LP, signing up for a Militia would essentially be punishing yourself by incurring all of the downsides of FW without the upsides.

It would still be a free wardec, but "Pirates" don't care about that anyway right?

If implemented, Pirate FW should be something that's done as a major feature release. It would give many current players who are attracted to the different Pirate Factions already a cool new avenue of gameplay to explore, but the main advantage for CCP would be launching it as a draw for new players. Newbies need to be able to adorably derp failfit frigates all day every day until they learn to play, and to do that they need income to pay for all those frigate losses. Pirate FW would definitely need its own LP store, and it would need to be on par with Navy FW from a profit standpoint.
Nameira Vanis-Tor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2015-03-17 15:57:42 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
Ya, very few people are going to do FW just for the lolRP of fighting for the internet space honor of their favorite internet space faction. Honor aside, with no financial gain to be had from LP, signing up for a Militia would essentially be punishing yourself by incurring all of the downsides of FW without the upsides.

It would still be a free wardec, but "Pirates" don't care about that anyway right?

If implemented, Pirate FW should be something that's done as a major feature release. It would give many current players who are attracted to the different Pirate Factions already a cool new avenue of gameplay to explore, but the main advantage for CCP would be launching it as a draw for new players. Newbies need to be able to adorably derp failfit frigates all day every day until they learn to play, and to do that they need income to pay for all those frigate losses. Pirate FW would definitely need its own LP store, and it would need to be on par with Navy FW from a profit standpoint.


...and a balance standpoint, as I've mentioned. Can you imagine everyone joining Sansha's faction to get Revenant Carrier BPC's, or who would want a Tempest Fleet Issue doctrine when you can have an Ashimmu Doctrine etc etc? It would run the risk of hurting the Empire Militias ability to support themselves.
S810 Jr
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#53 - 2015-03-17 16:38:47 UTC
Why must bringing Pirate Militias into FW be about making ISK? CCP has said it needs more ISK sinks every year. Pirate Militias (with no FW LP store) would act as one.

And who cares about newbies being able to earn ISK to be in FW, that is what the empire militias are already for, so why do it again?

From CCP's RP spin they can make a video about disheartened capsuleers joining forces with the pirate factions to fight the empires.
You know any disheartened capsuleers? I sure do. They are the ones with already skilled accounts that are not subbed to Eve anymore. Give them a reason to come back that isn't shooting just NPCs all day making ISK they don't need or being an F1 0.0 monkey that prays they are not the one who is going to be the next primary and alpha'd by 100's of other F1 0.0 monkeys.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#54 - 2015-03-17 16:44:48 UTC
Well, I'm sure there are a lot of people who would need to fix their standings towards those pirate factions if this was done.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#55 - 2015-03-17 16:49:46 UTC
S810 Jr wrote:
Why must bringing Pirate Militias into FW be about making ISK? CCP has said it needs more ISK sinks every year. Pirate Militias (with no FW LP store) would act as one.

And who cares about newbies being able to earn ISK to be in FW, that is what the empire militias are already for, so why do it again?

From CCP's RP spin they can make a video about disheartened capsuleers joining forces with the pirate factions to fight the empires.
You know any disheartened capsuleers? I sure do. They are the ones with already skilled accounts that are not subbed to Eve anymore. Give them a reason to come back that isn't shooting just NPCs all day making ISK they don't need or being an F1 0.0 monkey that prays they are not the one who is going to be the next primary and alpha'd by 100's of other F1 0.0 monkeys.


because people need to make isk to cover ships they lose pvping otherwise it just pointless being involved for anything else other than rp

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
S810 Jr
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#56 - 2015-03-17 16:52:48 UTC  |  Edited by: S810 Jr
Lan Wang wrote:
S810 Jr wrote:
Why must bringing Pirate Militias into FW be about making ISK? CCP has said it needs more ISK sinks every year. Pirate Militias (with no FW LP store) would act as one.

And who cares about newbies being able to earn ISK to be in FW, that is what the empire militias are already for, so why do it again?

From CCP's RP spin they can make a video about disheartened capsuleers joining forces with the pirate factions to fight the empires.
You know any disheartened capsuleers? I sure do. They are the ones with already skilled accounts that are not subbed to Eve anymore. Give them a reason to come back that isn't shooting just NPCs all day making ISK they don't need or being an F1 0.0 monkey that prays they are not the one who is going to be the next primary and alpha'd by 100's of other F1 0.0 monkeys.


because people need to make isk to cover ships they lose pvping otherwise it just pointless being involved for anything else other than rp



Alts or PLEX?
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#57 - 2015-03-17 16:57:01 UTC
S810 Jr wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
S810 Jr wrote:
Why must bringing Pirate Militias into FW be about making ISK? CCP has said it needs more ISK sinks every year. Pirate Militias (with no FW LP store) would act as one.

And who cares about newbies being able to earn ISK to be in FW, that is what the empire militias are already for, so why do it again?

From CCP's RP spin they can make a video about disheartened capsuleers joining forces with the pirate factions to fight the empires.
You know any disheartened capsuleers? I sure do. They are the ones with already skilled accounts that are not subbed to Eve anymore. Give them a reason to come back that isn't shooting just NPCs all day making ISK they don't need or being an F1 0.0 monkey that prays they are not the one who is going to be the next primary and alpha'd by 100's of other F1 0.0 monkeys.


because people need to make isk to cover ships they lose pvping otherwise it just pointless being involved for anything else other than rp



Alts or PLEX?


why should 1 part of the game only be playable with alts or plex? that wont attract any players whatsoever

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#58 - 2015-03-17 17:09:27 UTC
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:
Rinai Vero wrote:
Ya, very few people are going to do FW just for the lolRP of fighting for the internet space honor of their favorite internet space faction. Honor aside, with no financial gain to be had from LP, signing up for a Militia would essentially be punishing yourself by incurring all of the downsides of FW without the upsides.

It would still be a free wardec, but "Pirates" don't care about that anyway right?

If implemented, Pirate FW should be something that's done as a major feature release. It would give many current players who are attracted to the different Pirate Factions already a cool new avenue of gameplay to explore, but the main advantage for CCP would be launching it as a draw for new players. Newbies need to be able to adorably derp failfit frigates all day every day until they learn to play, and to do that they need income to pay for all those frigate losses. Pirate FW would definitely need its own LP store, and it would need to be on par with Navy FW from a profit standpoint.


...and a balance standpoint, as I've mentioned. Can you imagine everyone joining Sansha's faction to get Revenant Carrier BPC's, or who would want a Tempest Fleet Issue doctrine when you can have an Ashimmu Doctrine etc etc? It would run the risk of hurting the Empire Militias ability to support themselves.



Revenant BPCs only drop from Incursion boss fights, it isn't currently a Pirate LP item. Basically what you're doing is pointing out things that would only happen in CCP changed existing game mechanics to be intentionally game breaking. What doesn't fall into that category falls into "Already in the game, already not a problem." Ashimmu doctrine? Already totally doable, just expensive.

As I understood the problem that was brought up earlier, there is an established "Carebear" economy providing Pirate Faction items from Mission LP. FW LP stores would disrupt this, perhaps in a similar way to how Navy Faction ships and items being available on FW LP stores did when they were introduced. So far I haven't really seen a convincing case that such an outcome is actually bad.
Nameira Vanis-Tor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2015-03-17 19:50:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Nameira Vanis-Tor
Rinai Vero wrote:
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:
Rinai Vero wrote:
Ya, very few people are going to do FW just for the lolRP of fighting for the internet space honor of their favorite internet space faction. Honor aside, with no financial gain to be had from LP, signing up for a Militia would essentially be punishing yourself by incurring all of the downsides of FW without the upsides.

It would still be a free wardec, but "Pirates" don't care about that anyway right?

If implemented, Pirate FW should be something that's done as a major feature release. It would give many current players who are attracted to the different Pirate Factions already a cool new avenue of gameplay to explore, but the main advantage for CCP would be launching it as a draw for new players. Newbies need to be able to adorably derp failfit frigates all day every day until they learn to play, and to do that they need income to pay for all those frigate losses. Pirate FW would definitely need its own LP store, and it would need to be on par with Navy FW from a profit standpoint.


...and a balance standpoint, as I've mentioned. Can you imagine everyone joining Sansha's faction to get Revenant Carrier BPC's, or who would want a Tempest Fleet Issue doctrine when you can have an Ashimmu Doctrine etc etc? It would run the risk of hurting the Empire Militias ability to support themselves.



Revenant BPCs only drop from Incursion boss fights, it isn't currently a Pirate LP item. Basically what you're doing is pointing out things that would only happen in CCP changed existing game mechanics to be intentionally game breaking. What doesn't fall into that category falls into "Already in the game, already not a problem." Ashimmu doctrine? Already totally doable, just expensive.

As I understood the problem that was brought up earlier, there is an established "Carebear" economy providing Pirate Faction items from Mission LP. FW LP stores would disrupt this, perhaps in a similar way to how Navy Faction ships and items being available on FW LP stores did when they were introduced. So far I haven't really seen a convincing case that such an outcome is actually bad.


My point is that EVE is one big eco-system, when you consider faction warfare in its current form it is producing a Republic Fleet
Firetail for sale at approx 10-15 million ISK in Rens which gets some nice bonuses to projectile weapons and is a decent affordable workhorse solo/small gang frigate choice. Meanwhile the Cruor was on in very limited numbers in Rens selling for nearly 100 mil ISK - this is then a very good solo/specialist frigate that's expensive and gets massive bonuses to energy neutralisers and web range. Due to its limited availability and relative cost it maintains its place in the Eco-system of spaceship violence commensurate with its relative ship power for its class.

In introducing one new thing for the game 'pirate FW' you run the risk of killing 'empire FW' because it makes no economic sense to continue to pursue 'empire FW'. Roleplaying ect aside pilots need ISK to keep fighting and the market for empire faction kit is what keeps empire FW pilots with enough ISK to fight. If that market becomes obsolete so will 'empire FW'. Instead of adding content to EVE it will have just supplanted existing content.
S810 Jr
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#60 - 2015-03-18 00:44:10 UTC  |  Edited by: S810 Jr
Do any of you even remember what FW was like when it 1st came out? Before the ISK printing with a 1 day old alt?
Before the multiple changes to how the tier bonuses worked
Before the navy domi
Before LP for defending plexs


The 1st version of FW had 1000s of players joining the militias some for RP, some for pvp, some for both.

When it started it wasn't about making ISK, you can do that in every other part of eve.

You DO know that not everyone in low sec who PvPs needs to make ISK from FW right? Seeing as they've done it since before FW was even on some dev's whiteboard.

So if you think that there would be no uptake to pirate militias that have no FW store and only thing they can gain is bragging rights over empire militias by capturing systems from them, well you don't know much about eve players.