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Black OPS and the need for a re-design

Author
Domino Vyse
FeedingMachine
War and Wormhole
#81 - 2015-03-14 11:18:46 UTC
Lets just make blops invincible.
Halenark
Sorry We're In Your Space Eh
Seventh Sanctum.
#82 - 2015-03-14 16:08:45 UTC
I agree Blops Should not have fatigue why is it there its risk enough do drop a blops that cannot defend itself when carriers have things such a triage supers have such huge take and dreads are never dropped without support. as the point was for the new sov mechanics. and the defend against attack situation as big coalitions could drop all accross eve easier fatigue was created i agree with it but its not nessesary on blobs.

Local Does ruin Null Sec you have Dcsan for that why has eve become a game for 6 year olds and macros run off local want to stop the botters dont give them the capabilities to do it

Local chat is not nessesary for local or at least have it delayed. or as an option to be in it. why does a ship want to scream to everyone hey guys im in your space! if the feeling that local will make it too easy for cloaky campers then id agree with something that pulses throughout the system at random intervals to decloak ships another module or maybe a system jammer like the cyno one. as this only effect null sec sov space. NPC areas dont care if theres campers so make it a new possibility for sov regions as the care bares are gonna cry other wise

people in WH space live ther by choice they dont have it easy but there rewards are still rather highthey have however found ways of getting around there issues that CCP created what says null sec wont do the same to these simple changes.

BLOPS BS yes one needs to be more combat able either more tank or more DPS they have T1 resists! if this is not something your willing to change then take away the bridge functionality and there speed increase while cloaked for all i care and make them combat able DPS! without being extortionatly expensive fitted. make a second version as you have with Recons a version that can cloak and a version that cannot warp cloaked. a logistic purpose blops one that possibly could have a fitting bay and fleet hanger (only able to store modules or extra fuel) this blops can have no tank no dps and low Defensive capabilities!

we are not asking for much even if it may sound that way but this is what the purpose of the ship is for is it not?

I hope you read and consider and at least bother to answer this forum


Batuka
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2015-03-14 16:48:18 UTC
Completely agree i am starting my own Black ops Corp and this is the problem that makes it hard to recruit people dont want to have fatigue for days after we do a decent roam
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#84 - 2015-03-14 17:07:03 UTC
Halenark wrote:
I agree Blops Should not have fatigue why is it there its risk enough do drop a blops that cannot defend itself when carriers have things such a triage supers have such huge take and dreads are never dropped without support. as the point was for the new sov mechanics. and the defend against attack situation as big coalitions could drop all accross eve easier fatigue was created i agree with it but its not nessesary on blobs.

Local Does ruin Null Sec you have Dcsan for that why has eve become a game for 6 year olds and macros run off local want to stop the botters dont give them the capabilities to do it

Local chat is not nessesary for local or at least have it delayed. or as an option to be in it. why does a ship want to scream to everyone hey guys im in your space! if the feeling that local will make it too easy for cloaky campers then id agree with something that pulses throughout the system at random intervals to decloak ships another module or maybe a system jammer like the cyno one. as this only effect null sec sov space. NPC areas dont care if theres campers so make it a new possibility for sov regions as the care bares are gonna cry other wise

people in WH space live ther by choice they dont have it easy but there rewards are still rather highthey have however found ways of getting around there issues that CCP created what says null sec wont do the same to these simple changes.

BLOPS BS yes one needs to be more combat able either more tank or more DPS they have T1 resists! if this is not something your willing to change then take away the bridge functionality and there speed increase while cloaked for all i care and make them combat able DPS! without being extortionatly expensive fitted. make a second version as you have with Recons a version that can cloak and a version that cannot warp cloaked. a logistic purpose blops one that possibly could have a fitting bay and fleet hanger (only able to store modules or extra fuel) this blops can have no tank no dps and low Defensive capabilities!

we are not asking for much even if it may sound that way but this is what the purpose of the ship is for is it not?

I hope you read and consider and at least bother to answer this forum




they need fatigue otherwise they are too powerful they dont need more tank because they can jump around instantly and cloak, you can even drop triage with them, wormhole space doesnt have cynos, they can close the wormhole if they dont like whats on the otherside, they have limited amounts of capitals which can enter the home hole, this isnt the case in null so local needs to stay otherwise you ba aswell just moving to a wormhole as its more profitable and safer.

the purpose of the ship is to be a black ops, its working as intended and doesnt need buffed anymore to allow easier kills

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Domino Vyse
FeedingMachine
War and Wormhole
#85 - 2015-03-15 10:12:39 UTC
Halenark wrote:
I agree Blops Should not have fatigue why is it there its risk enough do drop a blops that cannot defend itself when carriers have things such a triage supers have such huge take and dreads are never dropped without support.


Black Ops are not capitals, regardless of the price.

This is essentially a thread of blops users who want easier kills.
Trajan Unknown
State War Academy
Caldari State
#86 - 2015-03-16 13:29:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Trajan Unknown
I guess this was suggested several times already and I read it when CCP brought the delayed local up but I feel like the local chat in null-sec is similar to a "map hack" in other games. During my time in null I was always thinking "why the **** local exists" outside of high-sec? Since I went to w-space I am enjoying this "no local" a lot. It brings so much more depth to the actual game and recon/cloaky ships are working as they should (imo). Maybe one day we will see some kind of infrastructure modules you can install in your home systems to kinda bring a "local chat" back while you don´t have it when it´s not there.
To come back to the core of the OP: I totally agree with the stuff, make the BLOPS stronger so they actually hurt when you are unaware.


edit: I am not a BLOPs user for the record. I just like it when things work more in their specific role.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#87 - 2015-03-16 13:50:48 UTC
Trajan Unknown wrote:
To come back to the core of the OP: I totally agree with the stuff, make the BLOPS stronger so they actually hurt when you are unaware.


edit: I am not a BLOPs user for the record. I just like it when things work more in their specific role.


erm this is what they do currently, clearly you have never used one before

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#88 - 2015-03-16 14:38:33 UTC
People whining null is worthless already and will be worth even less once their constellation is to be RF'ed by a single noobchar in a trollceptor?

Let's introduce the local upgrade. Onlined at a pos. To be the only active mod possible, and it sits outside the FF. Lists all nearby pilots within 15 AU in local. :d

Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#89 - 2015-03-16 14:41:53 UTC
Domino Vyse wrote:
Halenark wrote:
I agree Blops Should not have fatigue why is it there its risk enough do drop a blops that cannot defend itself when carriers have things such a triage supers have such huge take and dreads are never dropped without support.


Black Ops are not capitals, regardless of the price.

This is essentially a thread of blops users who want easier kills.


It isn't called Capital Fatigue, it's called Jump Fatigue, and BLOPs absolutely have a jump drive. If anything they shouldn't have the bonus that they do to both range *and* fatigue reduction.
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#90 - 2015-03-16 15:13:08 UTC
Chase Lexis wrote:
If you dont like local go play in wormholes. Cloaky ships should have no to little armour as you should be in out and cloaked up or whats the point of having a cloak. But i do like the delayed local idea if your cloaked. Then when you decloak you show up.


So you suggest that the ship least suited for Wormholes, go play in wormholes because local kills its role?

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide

SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#91 - 2015-03-16 16:06:45 UTC
Garrett Osinov wrote:
No way blops should get T2 resists. Guys you want a stealth ship with sick damage and sick tank. Get real.

The only thing it should get is price change, so it would cost less ISK.


It's not really a stealth ship. I.E. you can't fit a covops cloak. I mean you can smack a cloak on a mach.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#92 - 2015-03-16 16:13:03 UTC
Batuka wrote:
Completely agree i am starting my own Black ops Corp and this is the problem that makes it hard to recruit people dont want to have fatigue for days after we do a decent roam

And you don't if you manage fatigue properly. We have people BLOPsing all weekend, and most mange to keep timers below an hour. Manage you timers and its not a problem. Personally i let my fatigue drop to zero before a new jump unless its a very HVT.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#93 - 2015-03-16 16:15:20 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Garrett Osinov wrote:
No way blops should get T2 resists. Guys you want a stealth ship with sick damage and sick tank. Get real.

The only thing it should get is price change, so it would cost less ISK.


It's not really a stealth ship. I.E. you can't fit a covops cloak. I mean you can smack a cloak on a mach.


It has a jump drive so it can jump around a map with nothing more than a cyno, what do you need a covert ops cloak on a battleship for when it has a mjd? if you lose a blops because it cant fit a covert ops cloak your doing it wrong, 50% reduction in fatique should give you around 22minutes fatigue. that is enough time to kill the target you initially dropped on and get your cyno into another system for the next kill.

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#94 - 2015-03-16 16:18:25 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Garrett Osinov wrote:
No way blops should get T2 resists. Guys you want a stealth ship with sick damage and sick tank. Get real.

The only thing it should get is price change, so it would cost less ISK.


It's not really a stealth ship. I.E. you can't fit a covops cloak. I mean you can smack a cloak on a mach.


It has a jump drive so it can jump around a map with nothing more than a cyno, what do you need a covert ops cloak on a battleship for when it has a mjd? if you lose a blops because it cant fit a covert ops cloak your doing it wrong, 50% reduction in fatique should give you around 22minutes fatigue. that is enough time to kill the target you initially dropped on and get your cyno into another system for the next kill.

Its far better than just a cyno, its a covert cyno. Can't warp to it, unless your already on grid. CCyno has a much lower activation time, and you can cyno into cyno jammed systems. They are pretty cool really.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

Vizjira
Nanashi no Geemu
#95 - 2015-03-17 12:32:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Vizjira
Lan Wang wrote:
[...]you around 22minutes fatigue.[...]


8 * 0.5 = 4
1+4 (max. ly distance) = 5
5 / 0.1 = 50min

I can live with having non-delayed local, weak combat capabilities and a high price.

But telling the fleet to take a 30min break after killing a ship is simply not enjoyable or engaging gameplay.

Edit: BlackOps multiplier only affects ly part not the base value (1) increasing max-time from 45min to 50min
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#96 - 2015-03-17 12:47:14 UTC
Vizjira wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
[quote=SmilingVagrant][quote=Garrett Osinov][...]you around 22minutes fatigue.[...]


1+8 (max. ly distance) = 9
9 * 0.5 = 4.5
4.5 / 0.1 = 45min

I can live with having non-delayed local, weak combat capabilities and a high price.

But telling the fleet to take a 30min break after killing a ship is simply not enjoyable or engaging gameplay.

Greetings


yeah 45mins so yeah 50% reduction with blops = 22:30 fatigue

telling the fleet to take a 30min break, wow tell that to the thousands of capital pilots or players using jump bridges who get no reduction in fatigue, do you just think you should be more of a priority and be able to hotdrop with no effect whatsoever constantly all day everyday? lose the fatigue and everyone will use blops all the time and everything will just get boring really fast

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Vizjira
Nanashi no Geemu
#97 - 2015-03-17 13:21:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Vizjira
Lan Wang wrote:
Vizjira wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
[quote=SmilingVagrant][quote=Garrett Osinov][...]you around 22minutes fatigue.[...]


1+8 (max. ly distance) = 9
9 * 0.5 = 4.5
4.5 / 0.1 = 45min

I can live with having non-delayed local, weak combat capabilities and a high price.

But telling the fleet to take a 30min break after killing a ship is simply not enjoyable or engaging gameplay.

Greetings


yeah 45mins so yeah 50% reduction with blops = 22:30 fatigue

telling the fleet to take a 30min break, wow tell that to the thousands of capital pilots or players using jump bridges who get no reduction in fatigue, do you just think you should be more of a priority and be able to hotdrop with no effect whatsoever constantly all day everyday? lose the fatigue and everyone will use blops all the time and everything will just get boring really fast


I already included the reduction - it is 50min for Black Ops. I would be happy with 75% reduction which you are already assuming. I guess we are on the same page.

Edit: BlackOps multiplier only affects ly part not the base value (1) increasing max-time from 45min to 50min
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#98 - 2015-03-17 14:05:51 UTC
Vizjira wrote:
But telling the fleet to take a 30min break after killing a ship is simply not enjoyable or engaging gameplay.


Perhaps you should go to systems with more targets then?
Vizjira
Nanashi no Geemu
#99 - 2015-03-17 14:37:25 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Vizjira wrote:
But telling the fleet to take a 30min break after killing a ship is simply not enjoyable or engaging gameplay.


Perhaps you should go to systems with more targets then?


I assume you lack practical experience using jump drives.

Let's assume you find 5 targets to kill and a jump range of 5ly between them.

1+5*0.5 = 3.5

Jump: 3.5min cd and 35min fatigue
Wait 3.5min: ~112min fatigue
Wait 11min: ~375min fatigue
Wait 37.5min: ~1270min fatigue
Wait 127min: ~4333min fatigue
Wait 433min (7h) and back home (assuming also 5ly): 14700min (245h~ 10 days) fatigue and a day cooldown

-> If you would jump on cooldown you would end up with ~10 days fatigue.

Greetings
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#100 - 2015-03-17 14:45:40 UTC
Given a one-hour OP is much more likely than a three-hour OP, this would leave you with 20h of jump faitgue not taking the 2 hour cd on the JD after the 4th target. So you can drop three targets and jump home today and start again from anytime tomorrow -4hours, or drop four and go back home by feet (and blops BS on a gate are not really in danger)

I fail to see the bigger issue.