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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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GeeShizzle MacCloud
#1501 - 2015-03-14 01:49:24 UTC  |  Edited by: GeeShizzle MacCloud
Teckos Pech wrote:


We agree. Change both...or neither, although I'd prefer a well thought change to doing nothing and that is the harder of the two.

In my old thread I posted this a few times hoping for some discussion.

http://www.themittani.com/features/local-problem-tale-two-solutions


it is a good launch point for a whole host of issues surrounding local and cloaking to be honest. And whilst i understand the reason to adopt a KISS approach i do think in this instance the 'keep it as simple as it needs to be' is the best course of action.

though my preference leans towards the direction of Rhavas' proposals than to Poe's there are some things i do not think would be beneficial and/or feel too much of an artificial construct to really be immersive (and yes i know the eve universe isnt exactly a paragon of logic and realism), but striving for realism does have its upsides in the form of imparting a form of natural balance to things.

regardless ill spare everyone the intricacies to another thread or till relevant areas are discussed instead of boring people with a mass wall'o'text that tends to actually discourage a continued conversation on the subject.

to be continued so you might say!
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#1502 - 2015-03-14 18:29:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Altirius Saldiaro
Any change to cloaking is bad. Especially because cloaking is not a problem where I live in wspace. The idea to change cloakimg keeps coming from lazy nullbears who use the local channel as their crutch.

CCP will not change cloaking. Even their recent proposal to change the uncloaking mechanic was reversed. It would have affected wspace too much to justify going ahead with it just to balance bombing runs.

You nullbears can whine, complain, argue and attempt to give ideas of nerfing cloaking. However, it's all wasted time. Cloaking will not change.

Delayed local is the best solution. Having to work for Intel, and maintain gate control is where nullsec should go. Any well defended stronghold has guards at the gates. If you leave them open, its your fault when you get attacked. We maintain scouts on our wormholes. When there's a threat, we fight for hole control. Failing to control that avenue is why we use scouts. We dont have the crutches of Local to lean on. Nullsec should not be such an easy place to lIve. Easy breeds lazy which results in greedy, fat nullbears.
Roxanne Quall
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1503 - 2015-03-14 19:02:24 UTC
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:


Delayed local is the best solution. Having to work for Intel, and maintain gate control is where nullsec should go. Any well defended stronghold has guards at the gates. If you leave them open, its your fault when you get attacked. We maintain scouts on our wormholes. When there's a threat, we fight for hole control. Failing to control that avenue is why we use scouts. We dont have the crutches of Local to lean on. Nullsec should not be such an easy place to lIve. Easy breeds lazy which results in greedy, fat nullbears.


You can;t cyno people into a WH

And

You can close a WH if you wish to do so.

Both affect Null space to a great extent

Also most income is made off anoms in Null where in WH you need to scan them down. So you have many more warning signs and less force projection ability in WH space. So not haven't local there can;t be comparer to local in Known Space.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1504 - 2015-03-14 19:35:44 UTC
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
Any change to cloaking is bad. Especially because cloaking is not a problem where I live in wspace. The idea to change cloakimg keeps coming from lazy nullbears who use the local channel as their crutch.

CCP will not change cloaking. Even their recent proposal to change the uncloaking mechanic was reversed. It would have affected wspace too much to justify going ahead with it just to balance bombing runs.

You nullbears can whine, complain, argue and attempt to give ideas of nerfing cloaking. However, it's all wasted time. Cloaking will not change.

Delayed local is the best solution. Having to work for Intel, and maintain gate control is where nullsec should go. Any well defended stronghold has guards at the gates. If you leave them open, its your fault when you get attacked. We maintain scouts on our wormholes. When there's a threat, we fight for hole control. Failing to control that avenue is why we use scouts. We dont have the crutches of Local to lean on. Nullsec should not be such an easy place to lIve. Easy breeds lazy which results in greedy, fat nullbears.


I wonder if you would feel the same way if not only could you NOT close the entrances to your space, but that they were visible to anyone in adjacent systems, cynos worked, and there were easily accessible information (in and out of game) on things like # of rats killed and average # of players logged in in your preferred w-space system? I'm thinking you'd probably be singing a new tune.

The space you live in comes with a fair degree of "stealth" already, so comparisons are a bit strained and to make simplistic comparisons like you have done are not very well thought out.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1505 - 2015-03-14 20:25:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
But that's the way forums work, ignore everything that's inconvenient and when someone calls you out on it call them a nullbear

BTW, you should claim that being able to bubble camp is the same as closing the door by collapsing the wormhole

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Gaan Cathal
Angry Mustellid
#1506 - 2015-03-14 20:44:38 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
I wonder if you would feel the same way if not only could you NOT close the entrances to your space, but that they were visible to anyone in adjacent systems, cynos worked, and there were easily accessible information (in and out of game) on things like # of rats killed and average # of players logged in in your preferred w-space system? I'm thinking you'd probably be singing a new tune.

The space you live in comes with a fair degree of "stealth" already, so comparisons are a bit strained and to make simplistic comparisons like you have done are not very well thought out.


Um, Cynojammers?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1507 - 2015-03-14 20:47:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Gaan Cathal wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
I wonder if you would feel the same way if not only could you NOT close the entrances to your space, but that they were visible to anyone in adjacent systems, cynos worked, and there were easily accessible information (in and out of game) on things like # of rats killed and average # of players logged in in your preferred w-space system? I'm thinking you'd probably be singing a new tune.

The space you live in comes with a fair degree of "stealth" already, so comparisons are a bit strained and to make simplistic comparisons like you have done are not very well thought out.


Um, Cynojammers?

I think they're referring to covops drops, so covert cynos

But they're so fatiggggggggueinnggggg


Obviously it's also trh case that now titans and whatever can just come in through the door (gate) as well.. sigh

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Lienzo
Amanuensis
#1508 - 2015-03-14 23:54:01 UTC
Make probe decay time cumulative.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1509 - 2015-03-15 05:53:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Gaan Cathal wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
I wonder if you would feel the same way if not only could you NOT close the entrances to your space, but that they were visible to anyone in adjacent systems, cynos worked, and there were easily accessible information (in and out of game) on things like # of rats killed and average # of players logged in in your preferred w-space system? I'm thinking you'd probably be singing a new tune.

The space you live in comes with a fair degree of "stealth" already, so comparisons are a bit strained and to make simplistic comparisons like you have done are not very well thought out.


Um, Cynojammers?


As I'm sure somebody has already pointed out...covert cynos? Roll

And good job ignoring the rest.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1510 - 2015-03-15 05:58:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
Any change to cloaking is bad. Especially because cloaking is not a problem where I live in wspace. The idea to change cloakimg keeps coming from lazy nullbears who use the local channel as their crutch.

CCP will not change cloaking. Even their recent proposal to change the uncloaking mechanic was reversed. It would have affected wspace too much to justify going ahead with it just to balance bombing runs.

You nullbears can whine, complain, argue and attempt to give ideas of nerfing cloaking. However, it's all wasted time. Cloaking will not change.

Delayed local is the best solution. Having to work for Intel, and maintain gate control is where nullsec should go. Any well defended stronghold has guards at the gates. If you leave them open, its your fault when you get attacked. We maintain scouts on our wormholes. When there's a threat, we fight for hole control. Failing to control that avenue is why we use scouts. We dont have the crutches of Local to lean on. Nullsec should not be such an easy place to lIve. Easy breeds lazy which results in greedy, fat nullbears.


BTW, I'm trying to figure out the problem with a change to cloaking for W-space people? Especially if some of these changes are linked to holding sov. You don't hold sov in W-space....so not a problem. So AFK cloaking is no longer a Thing™, but aren't the W-space guys telling us all that AFK cloaking is and never was a Thing™ in W-space? Are you now....idk...backtracking?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1511 - 2015-03-15 06:44:51 UTC
They're trying the old "we're hardcore because we don't have local" sort of troll/self-aggrandizement in order to feel like they're better than those nullbears

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#1512 - 2015-03-15 11:35:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
The root discussion point is that we first should all agree that no-one should be able to exert a meta force in game without actively playing.


Its not exerted. The danger of someone sitting in local and doing nothing else is entirely inferred.

Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:


Again, the real question is why hasn't CCP implemented this obvious fix already, or provided compelling rationale as to why a player should still be allowed to exert meta forces on game play without actually being there...

F


Because being able to appear afk whilst not actually being afk is important.

unless you change local that is.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
#1513 - 2015-03-15 18:59:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Nasar Vyron
Removal or delay of local accomplishes nothing without the removal of several free intel hooks that currently exist at the same time. I am of course referring to # of rat kills/players in system/jumps, but also system indices and true sec values (which I think needs to be reworked to make more of null desirable to live in anyway). I'd also remove anoms as we currently have them and make them something that had to be scanned and increase their payout slightly to compensate. Think WH space, but always open, keeping an eye on dscan for probes would give you more time to react that local ever could.


Bottom line is, unlike WH space which has all this information hidden and can go on lockdown if they so choose, null is constantly open to attack and has mountains of free information available to the attackers before ever stepping foot in a system.


All that said, the only thing that should have ever been looked at as far as cloaks go is making the cloak mechanic itself more interactive. That way those who want to hunt or remain hidden have to actively do so. Most effectively accomplished by introducing a cycle times (say 10 minutes) to cloaks and does not allow for auto-repeat.

May I add, I really dislike the idea of changing a dozen things to accomplish what a simple tweak would accomplish.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1514 - 2015-03-16 07:42:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Nasar Vyron wrote:
Removal or delay of local accomplishes nothing without the removal of several free intel hooks that currently exist at the same time. I am of course referring to # of rat kills/players in system/jumps, but also system indices and true sec values (which I think needs to be reworked to make more of null desirable to live in anyway). I'd also remove anoms as we currently have them and make them something that had to be scanned and increase their payout slightly to compensate. Think WH space, but always open, keeping an eye on dscan for probes would give you more time to react that local ever could.


Bottom line is, unlike WH space which has all this information hidden and can go on lockdown if they so choose, null is constantly open to attack and has mountains of free information available to the attackers before ever stepping foot in a system.


All that said, the only thing that should have ever been looked at as far as cloaks go is making the cloak mechanic itself more interactive. That way those who want to hunt or remain hidden have to actively do so. Most effectively accomplished by introducing a cycle times (say 10 minutes) to cloaks and does not allow for auto-repeat.

May I add, I really dislike the idea of changing a dozen things to accomplish what a simple tweak would accomplish.


Let me see, you start off fine, pointing out all this free intel and how it is a problem....then you completely fall flat on your face with the usual carebear bromide of "give cloaks a timer". So nerf only one side and therefore a tremendous buff to ratting and mining in null.

Your position is ultimately hypocritical. You bemoan on the one hand the free intel that exists both out and in game. You don't want a change to local without those issues being addressed. But then you have no problem with the free intel via local. Intel you have to do nothing to obtain. Intel that will give you an advantage if you are already in system ratting, mining, etc. In fact, the only thing that will negatively impact this free and flawless intel you have access too you want to nerf.

Next time, you can just simplify by saying, "Nerf just cloaks," so the rest of us can know to ignore your posts.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Drogo Drogos
Liquilibi Nuclues
#1515 - 2015-03-16 08:08:21 UTC
Rovinia wrote:
One possibility would be to make cloaking devices use fuel. Just use the mechanics of the anciliary reppers with some new sort of fuel (would as well give PI a little push).

After 2-3 hours, you have to get a refuel or your cloaking device deactivates itself. In most cases that would mean that you have to leave the system from time to time --> more traffic on stargates --> more things to shoot.



ccp please.........DO IT !
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#1516 - 2015-03-16 10:29:01 UTC  |  Edited by: GeeShizzle MacCloud
Drogo Drogos wrote:
Rovinia wrote:
One possibility would be to make cloaking devices use fuel. Just use the mechanics of the anciliary reppers with some new sort of fuel (would as well give PI a little push).

After 2-3 hours, you have to get a refuel or your cloaking device deactivates itself. In most cases that would mean that you have to leave the system from time to time --> more traffic on stargates --> more things to shoot.



ccp please.........DO IT !



Fuel based cloaks are a terrible notion and are a really narrow minded uninspired fix to the non-issue of cloaking. If we get a change in some way to local (that has a corresponding addition of intel tools for sov holders that have to be paid for and can be disrupted and destroyed) then i would like to see a change to cloaking slightly / change to how cynos operate in conjunction to cloaks.

But in all honesty having to refuel to let cloaks work again like its some kind of siege/triage/cyno module is bad, especially considering each ship has a powerplant that charges our capacitance reserves. The ONLY fuel based cloak proposal I've ever liked was not really fuel based but a slow exponential rise in a cloaks capacitor usage over time, to the point you can never be cap stable with a cloak activated, but you don't have to run home for fuel all the time, cause that's just illogical considering the resources you have in the ship you're flying in space.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1517 - 2015-03-16 15:54:54 UTC
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
Drogo Drogos wrote:
Rovinia wrote:
One possibility would be to make cloaking devices use fuel. Just use the mechanics of the anciliary reppers with some new sort of fuel (would as well give PI a little push).

After 2-3 hours, you have to get a refuel or your cloaking device deactivates itself. In most cases that would mean that you have to leave the system from time to time --> more traffic on stargates --> more things to shoot.



ccp please.........DO IT !



Fuel based cloaks are a terrible notion and are a really narrow minded uninspired fix to the non-issue of cloaking. If we get a change in some way to local (that has a corresponding addition of intel tools for sov holders that have to be paid for and can be disrupted and destroyed) then i would like to see a change to cloaking slightly / change to how cynos operate in conjunction to cloaks.

But in all honesty having to refuel to let cloaks work again like its some kind of siege/triage/cyno module is bad, especially considering each ship has a powerplant that charges our capacitance reserves. The ONLY fuel based cloak proposal I've ever liked was not really fuel based but a slow exponential rise in a cloaks capacitor usage over time, to the point you can never be cap stable with a cloak activated, but you don't have to run home for fuel all the time, cause that's just illogical considering the resources you have in the ship you're flying in space.


I agree, and it does nothing to address the issue of local. Cloaks right now are THE counter to local. Local is THE counter to cloaks. Changing one without changing the other will result in imbalance and anyone suggesting such changes are in fact arguing for imbalanced game mechanics. That right there should tell anyone else watching this discussion that such changes are bad right out of the box.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#1518 - 2015-03-17 00:19:44 UTC
Removed a rumor post.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Faelune
Tous Pour Un
#1519 - 2015-03-17 14:36:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Faelune
A manner to improve the Afk Cloaking without need of amount of energy could be produce by doing it,
wherever it exists a structure to parasite by wire or induction or a comet to suck because energy needed, or:
wherever it exists a sun; or
wherever a ship can sleep like a stone; obviously near a celestail corps like a moon inside his shadow, or inside an asteroid field, all system in sleep

May be it can be officialize by new skill to improve and qualify the method. May be

And a delicious feature I think about for the future
The skill to hack all Probe in space to listen and watch where you are.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#1520 - 2015-03-17 16:04:14 UTC
76 pages, when the answer is so simple (it really is).

F

Would you like to know more?