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Balancing Amarr BS/large lasers
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Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
#1 - 2015-03-15 00:12:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Uriam Khanid
So, when you try to use Amarr BS’s for Pve, everybody will tell you that they are bad (tracking, cap issue, etc.). That is not true.
Paladin, Nightmare, Bhaalgorn and all ships except T1 BS's will told you a very successful story in Pve. The real problem is that all T1 Amarr BS's are not design as laser platform. Yes, they have bonuses for lasers, but they not design to support ALL their laser turrets. There is no T1 Amarr BS that can fit T2 tachyons on max skill without implants, reactor unit, 1 or 2 ancillary routers (or all of them). Also, there is problem with mega beams. On some Amarr BS's you cannot fit both mega beam and tank.
Now, check killboards, same problem. Where the hell are tachyons? And where is Abaddon with all 8 T2 mega beams? (and without RCU, implant, LACR)
Interesting point, that you can always find BS's from other faction that can fit all T2 guns+tank(Attention) and can support all turrets without RCU, LACR and implant. Rokh, Hyperion, Maelstrom, etc. But not Amarr BS's...
Some suggestions:
1) Abaddon: remove 1 turret and increase his bonus to +7,5-10% damage
2) All Amarr BS's will get +5% increase power grid or mega beam/tachyon get -5% power grids.

what we get:
- it allow to Abaddon to be fully operational as laser boat. Abaddon will be only ONE amarr BS that can fit tachyons without rigs, RCU and tank! and you will still MUST maximize you fitting skillAttention
- change 2 will give a life to Navy Armageddon (do you listen about it? no?). it also give a fresh sight on Apoc's.
- tachyons are equal to 1200 artillery. both have same range,duration, tracking.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#2 - 2015-03-15 00:29:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Could the balance be that you aren't meant to fit the larger variants w/o sacrifice on the t1 hulls maybe?

it's the same thing with arties and rails

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
#3 - 2015-03-15 00:35:33 UTC
Both Rokh and Hyperion can fit T2 425 railguns AND tank without RCU, LACR and implant. same with Maelstrom (1400mm T2 and tank) + implant
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#4 - 2015-03-15 00:36:34 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Interesting bit of information: not all battleships (from other races) can equip their largest long-range weapons with a stiff tank AND utility... not without using some fitting mods and/or downgrading other systems.
Some examples:
- the Maelstorm fitting a full rack of 1400mm artys leave no extra PG for any other mod.
- the Megathron has some CPU issues when you try to fit it with 425mm rails with tank and utility.
- the Dominix does not have the CPU or PG to fit full rack of 425mm railguns with a tank and utility.

Another bit of information: with long range weapons you generally have to make TRADEOFFS in other aspects to make them work properly. This is intentional. Because range is a huge advantage.

How did you Veterans start?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#5 - 2015-03-15 00:40:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
this hole Race X can't do the same thing as Race Y thing is getting old


so if that is your reasoning move along

if all races were exactly the same things would be a bit boring


however if you some how feel that the sacrifices to fit the larger variants aren't worth then benefits then make that point and defend it

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
#6 - 2015-03-15 00:44:59 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Interesting bit of information: not all battleships (from other races) can equip their largest long-range weapons with a stiff tank AND utility... not without using some fitting mods and/or downgrading other systems.
Some examples:
- the Maelstorm fitting a full rack of 1400mm artys leave no extra PG for any other mod.
- the Megathron has some CPU issues when you try to fit it with 425mm rails with tank and utility.
- the Dominix does not have the CPU or PG to fit full rack of 425mm railguns with a tank and utility.

Another bit of information: with long range weapons you generally have to make TRADEOFFS in other aspects to make them work properly. This is intentional. Because range is a huge advantage.


yes, but your always can find ship that CAN fit both turrets AND tank in any other faction except Amarr. There is NO amarr BS that can only fit tachyon like for example Maelsrtom.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#7 - 2015-03-15 00:57:51 UTC
Uriam Khanid wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Interesting bit of information: not all battleships (from other races) can equip their largest long-range weapons with a stiff tank AND utility... not without using some fitting mods and/or downgrading other systems.
Some examples:
- the Maelstorm fitting a full rack of 1400mm artys leave no extra PG for any other mod.
- the Megathron has some CPU issues when you try to fit it with 425mm rails with tank and utility.
- the Dominix does not have the CPU or PG to fit full rack of 425mm railguns with a tank and utility.

Another bit of information: with long range weapons you generally have to make TRADEOFFS in other aspects to make them work properly. This is intentional. Because range is a huge advantage.


yes, but your always can find ship that CAN fit both turrets AND tank in any other faction except Amarr. There is NO amarr BS that can only fit tachyon like for example Maelsrtom.



the Armageddon can with just one pg rig

and again not all races need to be the same the others also don't use a weapon system that can swap charges instantly should they all be given this?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lienzo
Amanuensis
#8 - 2015-03-15 01:43:56 UTC
I suppose a 7x 425mm fit megathron is the only apples to apples comparison with a tachyon fit abaddon or apoc. All other pondering aside, a 2% reduction in tachyon beam PG probably would have negligible effect on any meta, especially the current one. Since the stakes aren't high, I wouldn't blink at any change. Anything that is typically shield fit cannot really compare, as all fitting modules are lowslot or rig based.

If there is anywhere to direct inquiry in light of the large spare pg buffer of the mega, it would be close to plates, but just beyond them to trimarks or field extender rigs, which are percentage effect mods that don't have stacking penalties. Add the latter, and we'll see people going back to a more diverse mixture of buffer and resists that would nudge reliance more to cpu than pg for tanking.

In general, in fleet roles, many battleships aren't meant to fit much of any non-role gear. Their extra slots can let them spread themselves over many roles, or concentrate themselves more fully on fewer roles. If they are a squad flagship, then the more nimble tending craft provide the tackling, target painting or remote buffing that allows the heavy platform to provide a critical fleet damage assist role.
Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
#9 - 2015-03-15 01:45:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Uriam Khanid
the Armageddon can with just one pg rig - exactly!! thank you even it a drone boat! Abaddon a very good hybrid platform, but bad with lasers

and again not all races need to be the same the others also don't use a weapon system that can swap charges instantly should they all be given this? - agree, but what you suggest? to remove all tachyons from game? or all T1 amarr BS? they are BAD with their own racial weapon!!! some even with mega beamsAttention
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2015-03-15 02:22:17 UTC
Uriam Khanid wrote:
So, when you try to use Amarr BS’s for Pve, everybody will tell you that they are bad (tracking, cap issue, etc.). That is not true.
Paladin, Nightmare, Bhaalgorn and all ships except T1 BS's will told you a very successful story in Pve. The real problem is that all T1 Amarr BS's are not design as laser platform. Yes, they have bonuses for lasers, but they not design to support ALL their laser turrets. There is no T1 Amarr BS that can fit T2 tachyons on max skill without implants, reactor unit, 1 or 2 ancillary routers (or all of them). Also, there is problem with mega beams. On some Amarr BS's you cannot fit both mega beam and tank.
Now, check killboards, same problem. Where the hell are tachyons? And where is Abaddon with all 8 T2 mega beams? (and without RCU, implant, LACR)
Interesting point, that you can always find BS's from other faction that can fit all T2 guns+tank(Attention) and can support all turrets without RCU, LACR and implant. Rokh, Hyperion, Maelstrom, etc. But not Amarr BS's...
Some suggestions:
1) Abaddon: remove 1 turret and increase his bonus to +7,5-10% damage
2) All Amarr BS's will get +5% increase power grid or mega beam/tachyon get -5% power grids.



You have started from pve but finished with KB's.

Tachyons are common choice for structure bashing so you don't need tank while you fit them. And as u mentioned those faction ships don't have any issues to 4 Tachyons and tank.

* you could easily fit full rack of Mega Beams both Apoc & Baddon without extra PG support + tank (maxed skilled pilot with related skills required for Lazorz and Armor Tank)
* you can't fit full rack of 1400's on Mael without extra PG support (maxed skilled pilot with related skills required for Arty)

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#11 - 2015-03-15 02:23:28 UTC
Uriam Khanid wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Interesting bit of information: not all battleships (from other races) can equip their largest long-range weapons with a stiff tank AND utility... not without using some fitting mods and/or downgrading other systems.
Some examples:
- the Maelstorm fitting a full rack of 1400mm artys leave no extra PG for any other mod.
- the Megathron has some CPU issues when you try to fit it with 425mm rails with tank and utility.
- the Dominix does not have the CPU or PG to fit full rack of 425mm railguns with a tank and utility.

Another bit of information: with long range weapons you generally have to make TRADEOFFS in other aspects to make them work properly. This is intentional. Because range is a huge advantage.


yes, but your always can find ship that CAN fit both turrets AND tank in any other faction except Amarr. There is NO amarr BS that can only fit tachyon like for example Maelsrtom.

The Dominix can't. Fit with 6x 425mm railguns it will have ~6 PG left.
The Dominix Navy Issue can't. Fit with 6x 425mm railguns it will have 26 PG left.

The Tempest can't. Fit with 6x 1400mm artillery it will have 700 PG left (barely enough for a 100MN afterburner)

The Typhoon Fleet issue can't. Fit 6x 1400mm artillery and it will have no PG left (in fact, it will be OVER by 3000 PG).


Also consider that Tachyons are somewhat considered "oversized" guns akin to the 1400mm artillery. They both offer superb damage and range... while the 425mm railgun simply has range and semi-mediocre damage.
The tradeoff is that they are goddamn hard to fit... and even harder to make a functional fit with them.

How did you Veterans start?
Kiryen O'Bannon
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2015-03-15 02:57:36 UTC
Baltec Megathrons fit tech II 425mm and full tank with nary a fitting mod or rig to be found.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
#13 - 2015-03-15 03:20:35 UTC
[/quote]
The Dominix can't. Fit with 6x 425mm railguns it will have ~6 PG left.
The Dominix Navy Issue can't. Fit with 6x 425mm railguns it will have 26 PG left.

The Tempest can't. Fit with 6x 1400mm artillery it will have 700 PG left (barely enough for a 100MN afterburner)

The Typhoon Fleet issue can't. Fit 6x 1400mm artillery and it will have no PG left (in fact, it will be OVER by 3000 PG).


Also consider that Tachyons are somewhat considered "oversized" guns akin to the 1400mm artillery. They both offer superb damage and range... while the 425mm railgun simply has range and semi-mediocre damage.
The tradeoff is that they are goddamn hard to fit... and even harder to make a functional fit with them.[/quote]

on your skill - may be. on max skill navy Domi CAN fit 425 railguns and your will get more than 1200+ pg. Fleet Tempest CAN fit 1400 on max skilland your will a lot pg.
don't fogget, tachyons have one BIG disadventage - they finish your cap very fast.
all Gallente/ Matar ships CAN fit 350 railgun and 1200 artillery - some Amarr BS CANNOT fit mega beam
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2015-03-15 03:48:27 UTC
+1

I've always thought it's strange that all other faction BS can fit their respective largest size guns, and have plenty of grid left for other mods, while Amar BS will be in the red with a full set of its largest guns alone, before even fitting anything else.

On top of that, Oracle can fit 8 Tachs easily, and have some grid left over. Amar BS is in a strange place...

Btw, it's all assuming max fitting skills. Noobs with no fitting skills shouldn't be in this conversation.P
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2015-03-15 04:48:13 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
+1

I've always thought it's strange that all other faction BS can fit their respective largest size guns, and have plenty of grid left for other mods, while Amar BS will be in the red with a full set of its largest guns alone, before even fitting anything else.

On top of that, Oracle can fit 8 Tachs easily, and have some grid left over. Amar BS is in a strange place...

Btw, it's all assuming max fitting skills. Noobs with no fitting skills shouldn't be in this conversation.P


That's why you have meta 4 turrets.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2015-03-15 05:42:37 UTC
you are correct, matter in fact I believe lasers have the highest tracking of any of the sniper turrets, especially on an Apoc which has both a projection and application hull buff.

Uriam Khanid wrote:
Both Rokh and Hyperion can fit T2 425 railguns AND tank without RCU, LACR and implant. same with Maelstrom (1400mm T2 and tank) + implant


Im not sure what mael you're flying but I need at least 2 ACRs for T2 1400s and a thin tank, my fitting skills are maxed except advanced weapon upgrades which is at 4

anyway I agree fitting reqs for both beams and howitzers of all sizes are absurd, especially considering all the the other drawbacks the weapon systems come with.

I dont have much ammarian SP but I hear fitting beams is just as ludicrous as fitting arty.
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2015-03-15 05:51:09 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:

Another bit of information: with long range weapons you generally have to make TRADEOFFS in other aspects to make them work properly. This is intentional. Because range is a huge advantage.


you already sacrifice tracking, and raw DPS...(except for rails) for mounting snipers.

Quote:
this hole Race X can't do the same thing as Race Y thing is getting old


every race should be able to fit their faction specific turrets. example stabber with 3 ******* ACRs you can't have 4x 720 scots. and a prop mod.
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2015-03-15 07:03:30 UTC
that's what we need; all ships need to be identical and just have different graphics and sound attached to them..... not.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#19 - 2015-03-15 07:07:40 UTC
Considering how ridiculously powerful Tachs are, I don't have a problem with the current setup. Amarr BS are very well balanced imo.

Tachs are able to fire in optimal while other guns are in falloff, with similar paper DPS numbers. That means the applied DPS of tachs is higher then other turret types. This SHOULD have a tradeoff. It turns out to be using meta 4 instead of t2, and/or fitting a reduced tank are those tradeoffs.

The Abbadon and it's cap issues are unrelated - that ship has cap issues, period, and needs it's base cap adjusted.

Overhaul Dscan!
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#20 - 2015-03-15 07:25:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Just as a sidenote: Dominix is not a turret ship and neither is the Armageddon. Using these 2 ships as examples to prove your points is a bit moot. Whoever wants to fit turrets, large turrets in particular, to these ships does not know what these ships are and should better remain quiet. Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
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