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When will assault ship balancing get a sticky here?

First post
Author
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2011-12-23 03:14:42 UTC
I saw that there has been some tinkering with their slot layouts, stats, and bonus' on chaos server.

Quote:
Retribution

+200 ArmorHP +15 CPU +1 Med-slot

Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Energy Turret Cap Use per level 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed per level

Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Energy Turret Optimal Range per level 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret Damage per level

Role bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Vengeance

+10 CPU +1 High-slot (utility)

Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Rocket Damage per level -5% bonus to Missile Launcher Rate of Fire per level

Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Armor Resistances per level 5% bonus to Capacitor Recharge Rate per level

Role bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Harpy

+10 CPU +200 ShieldHP +1 Low-slot

Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret Optimal range per level 5% bonus to Shield Resistances per level

Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret Optimal Range per level 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret Damage per level

Role bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Hawk

+10 CPU +1 Med-slot

Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire

Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to missile velocity and 5% bonus to shield boost amount per level

Role bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Enyo

+200 ArmorHP +10 CPU +1 Med-slot

Gallente Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret Damage per level

Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret Optimal Range per level 7.5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret Tracking Speed per level

Role bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Ishkur

+1 Low-slot

Gallente Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage 10% bonus to drone hitpoints per level

Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret Optimal Range per level 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level

Role bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Jaguar

+1 Low-slot

Minmatar Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Small Projectile Turret Damage per level 7.5% bonus to Small Projectile Turret Tracking per level

Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Projectile Turret Optimal Range per level 5% bonus to Small Projectile Damage per level

Role bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Wolf

+200 ArmorHP +10 CPU +1 Low-slot

Minmatar Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Small Projectile Turret Damage per level

Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Small Projectile Turret Damage per level 10% bonus to Small Projectile Falloff Range per level

Role bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty
CCP Lemur
#2 - 2011-12-23 10:09:25 UTC
When the stuff hits Sisi and the designer is ready to take in your feedback. The Chaos server is for internal development and not for public testing and commenting.

QA Guy | Special Ops Picture up to your IMGination.

ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
#3 - 2011-12-23 13:20:25 UTC
lol, the wolf is so awesome it doesnt get its last bonus, but still gets an additional low slot :-P
Axel Greye
Unlikely Suspects
#4 - 2011-12-23 13:54:30 UTC
ITTigerClawIK wrote:
lol, the wolf is so awesome it doesnt get its last bonus, but still gets an additional low slot :-P

IKR! Give the Wolf a Tracking bonus Atleast to keep it on par with the Enyo somewhat. sheesh people, Balance!
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#5 - 2011-12-23 14:00:08 UTC
Axel Greye wrote:
ITTigerClawIK wrote:
lol, the wolf is so awesome it doesnt get its last bonus, but still gets an additional low slot :-P

IKR! Give the Wolf a Tracking bonus Atleast to keep it on par with the Enyo somewhat. sheesh people, Balance!

It did apparently get a tracking bonus, the original post about the data dump was in error. The corrected version is here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/nmv25/from_chaos_with_love_to_assault_frigates/
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#6 - 2011-12-23 14:47:39 UTC
Give them all a bonus to afterburners and they will be lovely... Seriously no kidding.
(oh and make MWD penalties a worse at the same time)
Axel Greye
Unlikely Suspects
#7 - 2011-12-23 15:37:52 UTC
Tsubutai wrote:
Axel Greye wrote:
ITTigerClawIK wrote:
lol, the wolf is so awesome it doesnt get its last bonus, but still gets an additional low slot :-P

IKR! Give the Wolf a Tracking bonus Atleast to keep it on par with the Enyo somewhat. sheesh people, Balance!

It did apparently get a tracking bonus, the original post about the data dump was in error. The corrected version is here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/nmv25/from_chaos_with_love_to_assault_frigates/

THank goodness.
In which case I rest my case, I would nag that wolf would loooove a third mid rather than a 5th low, but I won't be picky. <3
Axel Greye
Unlikely Suspects
#8 - 2011-12-23 15:38:37 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Give them all a bonus to afterburners and they will be lovely... Seriously no kidding.
(oh and make MWD penalties a worse at the same time)

Yeh, MWD's for ceptors, AB's for Assault frigs.
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2011-12-23 16:34:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarak1 Kenpach1
i take it you didnt see the ab bonus' that were on sisi last time. those were about as modest as could be made and they still turned out overpowered and ridiculous. your not going to get the ab bonus so just stop saying it =P

besides, none of these can do ceptor speeds
Axel Greye
Unlikely Suspects
#10 - 2011-12-23 16:44:05 UTC
still, MWDs are almost never used on an AF, they are used on AF fittings in nullsec, but only to catch other AF's, in which case the sig penalty is moot as it's all small guns anyway. leave the dedicated speed/sig tackling to ceptors and give AF's something more useful.

give them increased sensor strengths or something. ceptors for initial point, followed by heavy tackler AF's that are jam-resistant.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2011-12-23 19:38:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Hungry Eyes
mwd's are always used by good AF pilots. right now, AF's are glorified tacklers. thats all theyre good for. AB AF's get kited and raped by nano canes, t1 cruisers with mwd, etc.

this is looking very interesting. might work.

p.s. i think the bonus to drone HP for the Ishkur is huge. this should give it the resiliency against other AF's like the Wolf that rely on sniping the drones quickly.
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#12 - 2011-12-23 20:21:42 UTC  |  Edited by: m0cking bird
Based on that garbage. Seems like CCP plans on screwing over interceptors completely. Nice! Not that I use them much over assault frigates any-more, but whatever. Other than the role bonus the rest of it seems interesting. I'm glad they're thinking along the way I view things. Focus on weapon system damage, with the exception of the Vengeance and Hawk. Those 2 should focus more on damage mitigation or more effective hit-points.

Assault ships should mirror Heavy assault cruisers and battle-cruiser dynamics. They should have the defence of a cruiser, with T2 resist and higher velocity. While being able to have the damage output of a battle-cruiser.

I would like those same dynamics, but with Assault frigates and Destroyers. More damage in-line with the current damage output of destroyers, while maintaining the effective hit-points of a T1 frigate with T2 resist.

Also, I would like to be able to use long range turrets and missiles on certain assault frigates. Kinda like the Muninn, Zealot and Cerberus. I'm finding it hard to put those set-ups together.

Also, based on those changes. Certain frigates seem very overpowered: Ishkur, Jaguar, Wolf, Harpy, Vengeance.

I apologize for my rude statements. However I'll leave them as is.


-proxyyyy
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2011-12-23 20:23:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Hungry Eyes
inties are fine. there's no way AF's will be able to achieve the same speeds and agility. speed IS defense for AF's. the AB bonus buff allowed them to mimic armour-AB HAC's, but this was OP.
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2011-12-23 20:47:37 UTC
these changes do not *obsolete* any of the ceptor hulls. no assault ship will be getting a range increase to points, agility or speed so, i agree with hungry eyes.

these changes do however let them hit above their weight class which is sexy as all hell
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2011-12-23 21:03:47 UTC
hope they put this on sisi soon.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2011-12-23 21:58:18 UTC
Yeah, uh, I wouldn't expect any big re-balancing threads or announcements to be up until CCP are all back from their Christmas holidays.

The chaos statdump (if its genuine) might be an interesting starting point but I'd like to see some of the theory behind it all. More than a 4th bonus, more than an afterburner boost, what we need to see for assault ships is a vision of the role they're supposed to fill and how that differs form the role other types of frigates (and destroyers) are supposed to fill, and how to make sure there's a viable niche for each category to occupy.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2011-12-23 22:40:18 UTC
the role of AF's has always been to take down "bigger stuff". this role has not been realized, but thats what it is.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2011-12-24 00:11:21 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
the role of AF's has always been to take down "bigger stuff". this role has not been realized, but thats what it is.

"Take down bigger stuff" might be an interesting niche for them but would want a little more than what we've seen here to become properly realised and to avoid them becoming a "Take down bigger stuff, oh and same size stuff, ok basically kill everything" ship which ended up stamping on the toes of existing hulls (specifically the faction frigs, interceptors and newly-improved destroyers).

I've mentioned elsewhere an idea of them being the frigate that can hold a tackle better than the other types of frigate, so they can keep a target locked down long after interceptors or faction frigs would have had to bail because of neuts or e-war - for this to work they'd benefit from something like a hull resistance to electronic warfare and energy emission systems modules.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

m0cking bird
Doomheim
#19 - 2011-12-24 00:40:17 UTC  |  Edited by: m0cking bird
With the exception of the stiletto. Most fleet interceptors are terrible. Mainly because a Stiletto can fit 1 medium shield extender.

Anyway, from what I've read. The Bonuses and changes to the Enyo, Hawk and Retribution are not substantial. Atleast compared to the other assault frigates.

Jaguar: The Jaguar would have no weaknesses. You could use a dual medium shield extender set-up, with a damage control and possible 2 damage modules. You will not have to down grade to 125mm auto-cannons to track afterbunering frigates. The only thing it would lack is projection damage. However, you could use one of the low slots for a tracking enhancer. Just with a damage control and 2 medium shield extender. The Jaguar can have around 12,000 effective hit-points or you could use a invulnerable field. After you factor in shield rigs. Even more hit-points

Vengeance: I'm already able to put together a perma-running neutralize set-up for the Vengeance. This means unless another frigate has a capacitor booster. I can shut off all their modules until my ship is destroyed. That is a built in GTFO ability. Works really well, but I was using a all turret set-up. Apart from that, which will be viable with rocket launchers if CCP goes ahead with these changes. The Vengeance can permanently run one repair and have a very large effective hit-points. While maintaining 130 - 140 damage per second. More than enough damage already. Only the most damaging assault frigates can engage this ship effectively @ the moment and survive. Increasing the Vengeance rate of fire is a big mistake. However, CCP went and made some of the other overpowered too.

Ishkur: Well, giving this ship one low slot is just increasing it's tank. Does not take much to make this overpowered. Those who have some insight on this frigate and figure out the rest Here.

Wolf: Now, not only does it already have the best gank-tank ratio of all the assault ships. CCP is suggesting increasing tank further, while maintaining that nice 300 damage per second. Not to mention it now has bonuses to tracking. No weaknesses other than only having 2 mid slots. However most frigates will not survive a engagement with this ship if they stayed under scrambler range.

Harpies: This will be better than the Eyno and will be more in-line with the Vengeance. Has range bonus which helps with damage projection and will allow it to out-damage most every ship under warp scrambler range. Except The Ishkur, Enyo, Wolf, Retribution. CCP seems to want to turn it into a little Drake with Blasters (shield resist bonus). Thing will be able to use a neutraliser. Set-up correctly, it will be able to active tank and track with blasters with the new changes to hybrids. Or just beast buffer tank like a dual mse Jaguar.

I would like to add the retribution, because it would be closer in-line with a Coercer in terms of damage if CCP went forward with these changes. Not to mention a bonus to Tracking and a mid slot. I will be using these alot to deal with the other OP ones.

Now if these ships get a sig bonus. What makes interceptors unique and worth using? A little more warp disruption range? What does it matter when you'll be fly swatted anyway. Doesn't a frigate with more tank become the better option? Also their are less than a handful of cruisers faster than 2,000m/sec and every frigate is significantly faster than that.

Even some of the best interceptor pilots in-game can see what these changes would mean. All I'm saying is at-least let interceptor keep their useful signature bonus. It's all they have. Assault ships do not need a role bonus. Focus on damage and projected damage for these ships. With the exception of the Vengeance and Hawk (these ships should focus on defence).

Also my new Jagabond set-up would look a bit better if these changes went threw.

[Jaguar, Cougar]
Damage Control II
Tracking Enhancer II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I

Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
1MN MicroWarpdrive II
Warp Disruptor II

280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S
[empty high slot]

Small Projectile Burst Aerator I
Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I


-proxyyyy
Jaigar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2011-12-24 07:19:58 UTC
I like where these changes are going, but they seem a bit over the top.

If they are actually datamined, I can only imagine what they have in store for EAFs..
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