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Darren Corley
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#81 - 2011-12-23 05:55:10 UTC
Kuronaga wrote:
Darren Corley wrote:
Kuronaga wrote:
This is the valid argument. So let me ask you, if fighting games allow arcade sticks (which give an advantage) and racing games allow driving wheels (which give an advantage), even niche games like ace combat have flight sticks (which give an advantage) but all allow controllers to also be used in a competitive environment, why should console FPS players get special treatment?

Are they suddenly babies that need everything dumbed down to the point nobody can reach their true potential?


Secondary Accessories. Primary for PC is KB/M, primary for Console is Controller. Most games on each will be suited for that primary control method. Some games, yes, you will do better with a wheel or stick. But it's the mentality behind it. People like me, who won;t use a controller for an FPS, want the control it offers. But most console gamers want the more casual controller. And they want an even playing ground like most sane people would. In ANY case, you want them to allow a KB/M for a secondary audience. Except, regardless of your ranting, doing so would push away the target audience.



http://evo2k.com/ has been steadily growing over the years, despite general lack of support from fighting game devs and where nearly every serious competitor has a specialized stick or pad that can be quite expensive. Yet still, there exist some who are decent with a normal pad, and most realize they never had a shot in hell of reaching top 8. This year, it had a couple thousand registrants fly to vegas from all over the world to compete.

Fighting games too, are based on consoles now, despite being born from another scene entirely (in their case arcades, in our case PC/internet).

I just don't see why there is suddenly this huge disconnect between the two groups.


We can run around with this all day. You say they're babies for wanting a level playing field with the standard console controller. Yet you're not a baby for wanting them to unbalance said level playing field just to get you to play? I understand the desire to only ever use a KB/M, I really do. But you know what? If the game isn't to my liking, as are console FPS games, I do not play them. I don't rant up a storm on the forums about it. It's just like all the people who want MMOs tailored to THEIR playstyle. The game was not made for our kind, get over it.
Kuronaga
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
The Chicken Coop
#82 - 2011-12-23 05:58:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Kuronaga
Darren Corley wrote:
Kuronaga wrote:
Darren Corley wrote:
Kuronaga wrote:
This is the valid argument. So let me ask you, if fighting games allow arcade sticks (which give an advantage) and racing games allow driving wheels (which give an advantage), even niche games like ace combat have flight sticks (which give an advantage) but all allow controllers to also be used in a competitive environment, why should console FPS players get special treatment?

Are they suddenly babies that need everything dumbed down to the point nobody can reach their true potential?


Secondary Accessories. Primary for PC is KB/M, primary for Console is Controller. Most games on each will be suited for that primary control method. Some games, yes, you will do better with a wheel or stick. But it's the mentality behind it. People like me, who won;t use a controller for an FPS, want the control it offers. But most console gamers want the more casual controller. And they want an even playing ground like most sane people would. In ANY case, you want them to allow a KB/M for a secondary audience. Except, regardless of your ranting, doing so would push away the target audience.



http://evo2k.com/ has been steadily growing over the years, despite general lack of support from fighting game devs and where nearly every serious competitor has a specialized stick or pad that can be quite expensive. Yet still, there exist some who are decent with a normal pad, and most realize they never had a shot in hell of reaching top 8. This year, it had a couple thousand registrants fly to vegas from all over the world to compete.

Fighting games too, are based on consoles now, despite being born from another scene entirely (in their case arcades, in our case PC/internet).

I just don't see why there is suddenly this huge disconnect between the two groups.


We can run around with this all day. You say they're babies for wanting a level playing field with the standard console controller. Yet you're not a baby for wanting them to unbalance said level playing field just to get you to play? I understand the desire to only ever use a KB/M, I really do. But you know what? If the game isn't to my liking, as are console FPS games, I do not play them. I don't rant up a storm on the forums about it. It's just like all the people who want MMOs tailored to THEIR playstyle. The game was not made for our kind, get over it.


Then it will die, and CCP will lose money.

Thus bringing the entire thread full circle.

Wasn't that an adventure?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#83 - 2011-12-23 06:01:40 UTC
Kuronaga wrote:
Then it will die, and CCP will lose money.

Thus bringing the entire thread full circle.
…right back to the question of: why should they add something that — with one exception — no other game in the same genre on the same platform has felt the need to implement?

Why will Dust die from this lack when the others didn't?
Why should CCP waste money on appeasing customer type Y when they're going after customer type X?
Kuronaga
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
The Chicken Coop
#84 - 2011-12-23 06:03:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Kuronaga
Tippia wrote:
Kuronaga wrote:
Then it will die, and CCP will lose money.

Thus bringing the entire thread full circle.
…right back to the question of: why should they add something that — with one exception — no other game in the same genre on the same platform has felt the need to implement?

Why will Dust die from this lack when the others didn't?
Why should CCP waste money on appeasing customer type Y when they're going after customer type X?


Because they can appease both, and because you don't grow a successful game by suckling on the breast of the bare minimum.

Seriously, are we going to do this whole thing again?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#85 - 2011-12-23 06:05:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Kuronaga wrote:
Because they can appease both, and because you don't grow a successful game by suckling on the breast of the bare minimum.
But is it worth the considerable effort for such a minimal (and very uncertain) gain?

Again, why will Dust die from this lack when the others didn't?
Why should CCP waste money on appeasing customer type Y when they're going after customer type X?
Quote:
Seriously, are we going to do this whole thing again?
What “again”? You never answered the questions to begin with.
Kuronaga
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
The Chicken Coop
#86 - 2011-12-23 06:15:14 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Kuronaga wrote:
Because they can appease both, and because you don't grow a successful game by suckling on the breast of the bare minimum.
But is it worth the considerable effort for such a minimal (and very uncertain) gain?

Again, why will Dust die from this lack when the others didn't?
Why should CCP waste money on appeasing customer type Y when they're going after customer type X?
Quote:
Seriously, are we going to do this whole thing again?
What “again”? You never answered the questions to begin with.


What "money" are they wasting? I don't believe they are wasting any. Just how much dev power does it take to program in simple keyboard/mouse support? You're acting like this is something that is incredibly labor intensive to do, and you have this mysterious insight into it that nobody else does.

But to answer both questions: Dust will die because console FPS players have limited attention spans, and they are only going to be charging around $20 for the initial cost. They need help from the core FPS audience to survive, and the core FPS audience ain't touchin a piece of **** controller.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#87 - 2011-12-23 06:22:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Kuronaga wrote:
What "money" are they wasting?
Development costs, you know…
Quote:
Just how much dev power does it take to program in simple keyboard/mouse support?
More than larger companies (with fatter margins) than CCP are willing to pay. You keep thinking that it's just a matter of checking the “support” box in UnrealEngine, and keep ignoring the tons of work that this would require — in particular when it comes to balancing, especially since the only way to balance it properly is to nuke KB/M input so hard that you might as well use the controller and train/reuse the skill that is used in every other console FPS on the market.

Simply adding it would make the game fail spectacularly since no-one is willing to play such an inherently unbalanced game; adding it properly means tons of work in order to arrive at a point where the addition is pointless (and still only addresses a tiny and largely irrelevant fringe customer base). One kills the game; the other is a waste of resources.
Quote:
But to answer both questions: Dust will die because console FPS players have limited attention spans, and they are only going to be charging around $20 for the initial cost.
Ah. Assumptions and conjecture and not a shred of facts or of a solid case. Goodie.
Quote:
the core FPS audience ain't touchin a piece of **** controller.
The core FPS audience is on consoles these days, and they're all using controllers. Times change.
Darren Corley
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#88 - 2011-12-23 06:23:16 UTC
You also assume more people play FPS games on the PC rather than a console. It's hardly something to reference or compare to, but right now there are 31,858 Battlefield 3 Players online via PC. There are 72,533 of them online via PS3 alone.
Kuronaga
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
The Chicken Coop
#89 - 2011-12-23 06:42:21 UTC
Battlefield 3 also doesn't require you pay 5 dollars to CCP every time you lose little flying command center. Most console brats won't play, because their mommies and daddies don't want to support that habit.

Also, counter-strike still has a ridiculous number of servers running. Funny you don't see that kind of commitment to a console FPS unless they are constantly releasing new iterations of the same game every year to keep players interested.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#90 - 2011-12-23 06:44:14 UTC
Quote:
Battlefield 3 also doesn't require you pay 5 dollars to CCP every time you lose little flying command center.


Excellent. Neither does DUST so the playing field is even. Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#91 - 2011-12-23 06:44:58 UTC
Kuronaga wrote:
Battlefield 3 also doesn't require you pay 5 dollars to CCP every time you lose little flying command center.
So, just like Dust then.
Quote:
Also, counter-strike still has a ridiculous number of servers running. Funny you don't see that kind of commitment to a console FPS unless they are constantly releasing new iterations of the same game every year to keep players interested.
Chicken and egg. Do they keep skipping to the new iteration because a new iteration is constantly being released, or do they release new iteration to keep people playing? Regardless, Dust will do the iteration thing, so what's the problem?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#92 - 2011-12-23 06:47:46 UTC
This is a horrible thread.

It's like I'm watching Tippia being forced to punish a puppy because it won't stop peeing on the floor.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Kuronaga
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
The Chicken Coop
#93 - 2011-12-23 06:50:50 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Kuronaga wrote:
Battlefield 3 also doesn't require you pay 5 dollars to CCP every time you lose little flying command center.
So, just like Dust then.


Re-read what I just said. It DOESN'T require you to pay money every time you lose. Dust DOES, or at least will for the average console player since they won't have an eve account to draw isk from.

Quote:
Chicken and egg. Do they keep skipping to the new iteration because a new iteration is constantly being released, or do they release new iteration to keep people playing? Regardless, Dust will do the iteration thing, so what's the problem?



CCP really sucks at expansions that contain actual content?
Kuronaga
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
The Chicken Coop
#94 - 2011-12-23 06:52:53 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
This is a horrible thread.

It's like I'm watching Tippia being forced to punish a puppy because it won't stop peeing on the floor.



go go power rangers, derp herp derp
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#95 - 2011-12-23 06:54:40 UTC
Kuronaga wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Kuronaga wrote:
Battlefield 3 also doesn't require you pay 5 dollars to CCP every time you lose little flying command center.
So, just like Dust then.


Re-read what I just said. It DOESN'T require you to pay money every time you lose. Dust DOES, or at least will for the average console player since they won't have an eve account to draw isk from.

Quote:
Chicken and egg. Do they keep skipping to the new iteration because a new iteration is constantly being released, or do they release new iteration to keep people playing? Regardless, Dust will do the iteration thing, so what's the problem?



CCP really sucks at expansions that contain actual content?


Pop quiz: Name all the sources of income available to DUST players.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#96 - 2011-12-23 06:55:49 UTC
Kuronaga wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
This is a horrible thread.

It's like I'm watching Tippia being forced to punish a puppy because it won't stop peeing on the floor.



go go power rangers, derp herp derp


Aww that's so CUTE!!! Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Kuronaga
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
The Chicken Coop
#97 - 2011-12-23 06:57:03 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Kuronaga wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Kuronaga wrote:
Battlefield 3 also doesn't require you pay 5 dollars to CCP every time you lose little flying command center.
So, just like Dust then.


Re-read what I just said. It DOESN'T require you to pay money every time you lose. Dust DOES, or at least will for the average console player since they won't have an eve account to draw isk from.

Quote:
Chicken and egg. Do they keep skipping to the new iteration because a new iteration is constantly being released, or do they release new iteration to keep people playing? Regardless, Dust will do the iteration thing, so what's the problem?



CCP really sucks at expansions that contain actual content?


Pop quiz: Name all the sources of income available to DUST players.



pop quiz: what eve player is going to pay a dust player who loses? And how is that dust player going to cover their losses?

derp herp derp
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#98 - 2011-12-23 07:01:36 UTC
Still waiting for an answer to my question, as that will provide the answer to yours.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#99 - 2011-12-23 07:05:02 UTC
Kuronaga wrote:
Re-read what I just said.
No. How about you re-read what I said.
BF3 doesn't require you to repurchase your [whatever], just like Dust.
Quote:
CCP really sucks at expansions that contain actual content?
You mean just like the other console FPS developers? Great. Then we can conclude that attention span is not an issue.
Kuronaga
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
The Chicken Coop
#100 - 2011-12-23 07:05:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Kuronaga
microtransactions and eve players.

microtransactions which are always available, and eve players who you better believe aren't going to give up anything unless you win.

So for the average joe, his stuff will be getting blown up constantly, and he will be reduced to basic starter junk that won't really win him any contracts.

I'm failing to see where you're going with this.

Quote:
BF3 doesn't require you to repurchase your [whatever], just like Dust.


You seem to not understand how Dust works. You start off with basic crap that you always have. You want something better? You want vehicles? You need isk for it. It is not a case of "buy once, have forever." Stuff gets lost just like Eve.

If that wasn't the case, there would never be a need to pay a dust player once they had everything. It would also be pointless for a dust merc to continue accumulating isk. It would be a pointless in general.

This also feeds into the idea that a dust merc can use things like the skyfire batteries to kill ships in orbit -- if a dust player can kill something of value in space, something in space has to be able to kill something of value on land. Otherwise it's a oneway battle every time.