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Becomming Suspect on entering FW Complex

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Master Sergeant MacRobert
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#101 - 2015-03-10 17:27:01 UTC
Mag's wrote:

Oh please, what relevance does that have? Bearing in mind I was directly addressing his remark regarding those of -10.

If you're going to try and state anything as fact in regards to sec status and tags, then at least come with evidence. It's a fact those of -5 and below are shootable without penalty, so what facts do you bring?


Wrong
Mag's wrote:
Bearing in mind I was directly addressing his remark regarding those of -10. ...

Deacon Abox wrote:
I don't see why any pirate, pirates that pride themselves on -10 or whatever... ... ...


Pirates do not wear >minus 5 badges like they used to.

I am happy you don't like the proposal from the Op. It is not reasonable to give suspect flags upon entering a plex, to anyone.

It is also not reasonable that Militia pilots are albeit forced to take a sec status hit and suspect flag for defending a FW plex (and yes we are obligated to fire first).

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#102 - 2015-03-10 17:41:24 UTC
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
Terra Chrall wrote:

This argument seems like it is the pirates that want things to be easy. There are no neutrals entering FW plexes unless they are noob and don't know what it is. In that case just add a warning to the entry gate with a confirmation box that you agree to be flagged by enttering.

TO amend your analogy: A neutral "reporter" in body armor carrying an M-16 charges at a checkpoint. Why oh why would anyone shoot them? No if an armed gunman, no military uniform on, charges a military complex they are most likely going to be shot and the soldiers on duty are not going to be in trouble they are going to be praised for doing their job.

I have to agree with the OP on this. Many pirates will disagree because they have been able to exploit this to their favor. I.E the FW militia person waits for the pirate to initiate or they suffer the sec penalty and the pirate does not. Either way the pirate has the advantage.

And joining FW does not mean one has to be a pirate, so why force them with a bad mechanic? Plex gates could warn non-FW of being flagged, if pirates want to pirate they still can, this does not stop them from doing what they intended to do anyway.


Gameplay & mechanics > everything else

The design needs to serve the mantra "what promotes more Player interaction (PVP)".

Some "neutral" low-sec players claim the suspect flag disadvantages them (and I agree). They should not have to carry a suspect flag after entering a plex that is suddenly empty (cost for no return).

By the same mantra opportunities for PVP are lost because the Militia pilot is obligated to take a sec hit or suspect flag. Either coz the Militia pilot will choose to flee (not soo likely with a combat pilot) or he/she won't be in a plex later as he fixes the sec status.

Arguing that they should use an alt is weak. Plenty of people are on one sub. Particularly casual players. Particularly parents. This game is 11 yrs old. Plenty of time for sproggs to appear.

Consider all play styles when throwing up "solutions".
Good points. I was arguing against a specific view that implied neutrals should have the advantage. But I was not specific in my details since duration of such a flag would be very important. In my mind this would be a very short flag, 30 seconds maybe. Long enough for the FW pilot to choose to engage or flee with no penalty for their choice.

The suggestion to make FW plexes FFO/Null rules would also work but I fear that would be a much harder solution programmaticly (i.e. dev time) to implement in a solar system with other rules in place than tying a flagging system to a gate. Unless it was also a flag system that cleared once you leave the plex.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#103 - 2015-03-10 18:43:24 UTC
I don't understand the hesitation or fear of inheriting a Suspect flag. It is not long at all. If you lose the fight, it may very well take you its duration to reship. If you win the fight, you spend that time looting and looking for another target, while also being a valid target to others.

The suspect flag is not a big deal! I get one every time I fly almost. You guys act like going GCC was years ago.
You can still dock. You can still gate travel. You can even go into highsec (scary!).

Please explain to me why suspect is such a hard penalty to deal with if you are attempting a fight with/as a neutral? I see only exaggeration.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#104 - 2015-03-10 18:50:58 UTC
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
Mag's wrote:

Oh please, what relevance does that have? Bearing in mind I was directly addressing his remark regarding those of -10.

If you're going to try and state anything as fact in regards to sec status and tags, then at least come with evidence. It's a fact those of -5 and below are shootable without penalty, so what facts do you bring?


Wrong
Mag's wrote:
Bearing in mind I was directly addressing his remark regarding those of -10. ...

Deacon Abox wrote:
I don't see why any pirate, pirates that pride themselves on -10 or whatever... ... ...


Pirates do not wear >minus 5 badges like they used to.

I am happy you don't like the proposal from the Op. It is not reasonable to give suspect flags upon entering a plex, to anyone.

It is also not reasonable that Militia pilots are albeit forced to take a sec status hit and suspect flag for defending a FW plex (and yes we are obligated to fire first).
Nice selective highlighting there. Now please read the whole sentence/post and that's what I was replying to. Or you can admit you jumped the gun and picked a fight over nothing, or something you read incorrectly. TBH I'm not sure which at this point. It's all rather vague and you seem to be clutching at straws. What?

Or are you suggesting he was correct when he implied that pirates who pride themselves at being -10, have any affect on the sec status of those in a FW plex?

Now back to your assertion regarding tags (and now it seems not wearing them as they used to) and those facts to back them up.
Do you have anything to show me, or should I just take it it was anecdotal? You seemed to imply the use of tags some how changed my facts. (it didn't btw, you don't lose sec status for shooting -5 and below.) So what is it?

Oh and just to throw a spanner in the works for you, I pride myself on my -10. But don't let my anecdotal evidence sway you in any way. After all I'm just a pirate. Yarr Pirate

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#105 - 2015-03-10 19:03:24 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Deacon Abox wrote:
I don't see why any pirate, pirates that pride themselves on -10 or whatever, should really care what happens to the other guys sec status. The only reason pirates care is because they know their entry grants an advantage. It makes the militia guy inside the plex have to decide not only whether he wants the particular fight, but also whether he will get a sec hit and wants the security hit. Unlike the majority of pirates, the majority of fw players do not look forward to achieving a -10 sec status. That extra split second advantage can translate into a tactical range or drone deployment or ewar lock or whatever for the entering pirate. This is the only reason why pies in the fw warzones oppose removal of the sec status hit to a militia member in a fw plex.
You do realise that shooting a guy with -5 and below, does not give you a sec hit right? So what advantage does entry grant them?


Since the introduction of tags for sec status your definition of what constitutes a pirate is out dated and void.
Oh please, what relevance does that have? Bearing in mind I was directly addressing his remark regarding those of -10.

If you're going to try and state anything as fact in regards to sec status and tags, then at least come with evidence. It's a fact those of -5 and below are shootable without penalty, so what facts do you bring?

Let me clear this up. It is not the pie sec status I am talking about. It is the pie identity as in not a fw opponent. Basically substitute neutral for pie in my first post.

Yeah if you are pie sec status there is no sec status loss worry. But if you are a pie or neutral but have sec status above -5 then there is the moment of decision.

What I was trying to say is rp-ing pies go into the plex knowing they are gunning for the occupant. Whether he's fw or not, and whether they personally have pie sec status or not. FW players on the other hand chose to get into fw for fw objectives (or yes some just to farm lp). The farmers are just going to run anyway or will be afk and die really quickly.

The fw pvp player though is looking to pvp anyone, pvp only his war target opponent, achieve a game objective of timing out the plex, gain fw lp, or any combination of those objectives. His decision on fighting may depend on whether the slicer entering is a pie or a wt. It could mean the difference between **** it my t1 frig will just get kited by the slicer so time to warp away, **** it I'm going to try and kill the slicer (maybe because he is a wt and I don't want him running this plex), **** it I waited too long to warp I guess I'd better lock and shoot before he has dictated the range he wants, or oops I waited to long to decide and he has already dictated range, etc.

Many neutrals/pies/interlopers etc in the faction warzone know that their objectives and/or lack of care about sec status differ from the fw player. Many love the advantage this brings in a fight. They don't want to see it go. The playing field is already tipped in favor of the neutral that doesn't care about sec status and doesn't care about the plex timer or system militia sov. I fail to see how any of them can object to a suspect flag if they already knew they were going to aggress the non-FW or FW player whether or not they got aggressed first.

tl:dr FW players care more about sec status hit than nullsec home ratting easy sec gain neutral or don't give a **** about sec hits pie. It is not a special snowflake plea, it is different objectives in gameplay. To have the rules penalize the fw when any suspect flag was already not a concern to the neutral or pie is a stupid state of affairs.

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#106 - 2015-03-11 00:27:19 UTC
Honestly really the idea makes sense.

A pirate (negative sec status) player is not going to care about any further efects to his/her status. A suspect (yellow flashy flag) would seriously help those FW pilots that care about their Sec status and what not.

IT should not be a problem to flag a non FW player as suspect, there is no disadvantage to the non-FW player for doing so....but their is a disadvantage for the FW player whom is basically legitimate military officer in a time of war for not doing flaggin non military pilots as suspect.

+1
Wolf Kruol
Suicide Squad Gamma
#107 - 2015-03-11 02:36:53 UTC
I like this idea.. +1 from me.

“If you're very very stupid? How can you possibly realize you're very very stupid?

You have to be relatively intelligent to realize how stupid you really are!”
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#108 - 2015-03-11 03:21:54 UTC  |  Edited by: McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The best solution proposed is removing sec status penalties from FW plexes for everyone.

There are a lot of RL analogies being thrown around in here, specifically the argument that shooting neutrals should have a negative consequence because you can't kill civilians while at war. The problem with this argument is that the system is at war, but the plex specifically is a battlefield. If you feel threatened by a neutral party on the battlefield you are not reprimanded for shooting first when that neutral party is carrying weapons and is logically there to shoot you.

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
#109 - 2015-03-12 10:36:32 UTC
Bad idea is bad. Either wait to get hit and engage or grow a pair and take the sec hit.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||
Flash Thomson
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#110 - 2015-03-12 10:52:44 UTC
Jack Carrigan wrote:
Bad idea is bad. Either wait to get hit and engage or grow a pair and take the sec hit.


(Sorry for picking you Jack, I could have selected many other as well, but you are just one up =D)

I am going to make the assumption you are one of the Pilots not participating in Factional Warfare a profiteer, a filthy pirate, a mass murderer or just a simple a violent lunatic, who kills capsuleers for fun or profit.

You say it is a bad Idea but give no reasons why!
You tell me to grow a pair but don't have one your self?

You don't care about the sec hit, so why complain about suspect flag?
I thought it is fights you are after, so how does the suspect flag bother you?
I think it will be helpful! Plenty of people will be able to shoot you for quite some time!

Oh... you are not after fights you don't start?
Oh... You might not be able to pull range?
Oh... you see your self at an disadvantage because of that?

Well guess what, that makes two of us!
But I actually have a reason to be in a plex!

I am a Faction War Pilot.
I fight for my State.
I am no Pirate nor do I want to be one!
I loose security standing for shooting an idiot entering a Battlefield with a Ship intended for war?

That's just Bullshit and most seem to know it!


PS:
Thank's for the likes and the awesome discussion ;) Keep at it =D

Tanking since 1982

Reporting Caldari Faction Warfare news on www.caldarinews.wordpress.com
JetStream Drenard
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#111 - 2015-03-12 14:45:24 UTC
Low Sec is broken, but your sec status has little to do with it. It is supposed to be a place where people can PvP, without going to null. ANYTHING, that limits pvp in low sec is broken. It is basically a heavier version of high sec rather then a lighter version of null.

Gate guns. The average small gang cannot cope with gate guns especially destroyer and below. This forces the need for cruiser logi in a fleet that does not want to use remote reps. This limits engagements with the daytrippers and any other small -medium fleet that simply wants easy kills and will not leave a gate environment as they travel.

Without gate guns, you would have more insta-locking, risk averse, easy-button pressers sitting on gates all over the place. Being Pi, allows neutral sec fleets to attack you without receiving a suspect flag and therefore leaving a small gang trying to engage them with the choice of abandoning the person being attacked, or fighting with gate guns defending the neutral aggressor. In small gang the choice is made to abandon because you cannot weather the gate gun fire, or most of your local reps are dedicated to handling gate gun dps instead of target dps. This is the reason why me and most of my corp fix our sec status, as it prevents being pwned on a gate.

So CCP could either remove gate guns or make the weapons flag visible to all and not allow gate guns from defending a neutral with a weapons timer, but it you should still get sec status loss for attacking a neutral, even if the gate guns dont defend them. I would vote for the latter, as gate guns is the only thing that prevents perma camps by people who do not understand the mechanics.

FW Deadspace Complexes. First, your sec status is irrelevant. The idea of making all FW Deadspace complexes a sec loss free zone (NOT a suspect status free zone) is appealing only because it can help to encourage PvP, with the truly risk averse that think sec status loss is some horrible thing that prevents them from living in high sec and running lvl4 missions all day.

The truth is the truly risk averse are only looking for easy kills and not good fights, and these people will rarely enter your plex anyway. BUT there exists the chance that it just might encourage more people to come to FW space to fight in plexes without sec status loss, and that is never a bad thing. Giving them suspect flags for entering is the opposite of encouraging pvp.

Sec Status. Working as intended. That is your consequence for attacking neutrals.


OP, All your arguments of pvp are worthless as is your militia. The truth is all you want to do is gank people while running away from every credible fight (good fight). Even though preventing sec status loss in FW plexes, would just increase your ability to skate around low sec, pretending to be in a war, while living in high sec is classic squid avoidance strategy, it is still a good idea from a pvp mmo stance. But dont pretend like your militia will suddenly get more content, you have plenty of content right now that you rarely use in any way other then ganking, it is called Gal Mil. You will only get more risk free content, which is all you really want anyway. The unfortunate part is that doing what is right for the game only makes your inability to play it stronger.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2015-03-12 14:58:08 UTC
Noooooo not this, again! Shocked

Tbh, I'd have no issue with removing sec status penalties in lowsec altogether. Though I'm -9.97 so I guess it's obvious that I don't really care. P

I see no reason to make special snowflake exceptions in FW plexes, though.

Also, suspect status and gate/station guns would need to stay imo, they're there for a good reason: making lowsec a bit easier to travel through or live in compared to null (along with no bubbles). Else there would be no difference vs. NPC null.

Diversity is good.

Amen.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#113 - 2015-03-12 15:03:36 UTC
Oreb Wing wrote:
I don't understand the hesitation or fear of inheriting a Suspect flag. It is not long at all. If you lose the fight, it may very well take you its duration to reship. If you win the fight, you spend that time looting and looking for another target, while also being a valid target to others.

The suspect flag is not a big deal! I get one every time I fly almost. You guys act like going GCC was years ago.
You can still dock. You can still gate travel. You can even go into highsec (scary!).

Please explain to me why suspect is such a hard penalty to deal with if you are attempting a fight with/as a neutral? I see only exaggeration.
Friend, I believe it's not the flag but the sec status hit because :highsec: (*me shudders).

I was slightly annoyed about my -9-97 status exactly once, one some galmil dudes I was in fleet with decided to go mess with the squids in Onnamon and I couldn't go with Sad.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
JetStream Drenard
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#114 - 2015-03-12 15:28:44 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:


Also, suspect status and gate/station guns would need to stay imo, they're there for a good reason: making lowsec a bit easier to travel through or live in compared to null (along with no bubbles). Else there would be no difference vs. NPC null.

Gully! Have not seen you in a while. I do Agree. In the interest of pvp opportunity, gate guns could be tweaked to not defend a neutral with a weapons timer. It would help small gangs pvp on gates enormously. But it is not a game changer.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2015-03-12 15:35:14 UTC
JetStream Drenard wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:


Also, suspect status and gate/station guns would need to stay imo, they're there for a good reason: making lowsec a bit easier to travel through or live in compared to null (along with no bubbles). Else there would be no difference vs. NPC null.

Gully! Have not seen you in a while. I do Agree. In the interest of pvp opportunity, gate guns could be tweaked to not defend a neutral with a weapons timer. It would help small gangs pvp on gates enormously. But it is not a game changer.
Yeah, RL's been a bit of a ***** lately...! Can just occasionally troll the forums atm, but I should be able to get back to pew-pew by next week or so.

See you soon in battle!

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#116 - 2015-03-12 16:00:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Oreb Wing
Most of my concern is being pie while flying support ships. We fight a lot of neutrals on gates. Being below -5 is pretty advantageous in this situation. I also Rambo through high sec in my cruiser now and then for the shortcut to Blackrise from The Citadel, or even down from Placid to Essence. My better navigation skills also makes me prefer Oreb in the transport instead of my indie, when I bring my mods in.

There are a lot of arguments against the suspect flag, but I find it even more despicable to be dropped in by a known awoxer, or neutral (both have happened to me) and watch them look at my ship, do my own range control as I wait for the first shot, only to see this ****** warp off and not engage. Once it was the SAME guy that fought me the day before when I was blaster and mwd fit. And that is BS.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2015-03-12 16:15:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Gully Alex Foyle
Oreb Wing wrote:
There are a lot of arguments against the suspect flag, but I find it even more despicable to be dropped in by s known awoxer, or neutral (both have happened to me) and watch them look at my ship, do my own range control as I wait for the first shot, only to see this ****** warp off and not engage. Once or was the SAME guy that fought me the day before when I was blaster and mwd fit. And that is BS.
Big smile Haven't been able to log on much lately, but last I heard known (=bad standings to corp) galmil awoxers are officially 'point and shoot first, discuss later'... At least that's what I do Pirate EDIT: my overview shows standings before militia, so I don't even have to think (:effort:)

For Minnies in our space, my rule always was 'shoot if not blue to corp'. Twisted

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!