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How to fix the Battleship problem! and changing Faction Battleships
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Lienzo
Amanuensis
#41 - 2015-03-10 01:29:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Lienzo
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Lienzo wrote:
I'd love to see a fix to BC/BS that didn't rely on improving mobility. Rather than increasing their versatility, they should provide critical benefits to their escorts.

What kind of 'critical benefits' were you thinking? I assume something different than the links that Command Ships provide?


The notion is that BS would provide engagement bonuses to other battleships, but defensive bonuses to their escorts. It's the same benefits as we know them today, only on grid. I can see how that wouldn't really make people want to hop out of cruisers, but it would make their defensive bonuses rely on slower battlecruisers, which they kinda already do. However, if they are all on grid, then it makes the battlecruisers the weak point, which in turn would probably like to have battleships around.

By itself, it wouldn't be enough, but it would be an interesting step towards promoting fleets of mixed hull classes.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#42 - 2015-03-10 01:44:23 UTC
Lienzo wrote:
The notion is that BS would provide engagement bonuses to other battleships, but defensive bonuses to their escorts. It's the same benefits as we know them today, only on grid. I can see how that wouldn't really make people want to hop out of cruisers, but it would make their defensive bonuses rely on slower battlecruisers, which they kinda already do. However, if they are all on grid, then it makes the battlecruisers the weak point, which in turn would probably like to have battleships around.

By itself, it wouldn't be enough, but it would be an interesting step towards promoting fleets of mixed hull classes.

Personally, I'd really like to see the return of solo battleship roams. Right now, it's tantamount to suicide to leave high-sec in one. Even with a scouting alt or off-grid links they are generally incapable of staving off an attack from 1-2 small ships.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#43 - 2015-03-10 07:26:50 UTC
DHB WildCat wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
DHB WildCat wrote:
Battleships need to be more powerful again. A gang of 20 Battleships should be able to kill a gang of 20 cruisers. However in todays game that is not the case. This needs to be fixed!

What? 20 BS can easily kill 20 cruisers if you bring the right BS and the right equipment. Mixing in a Bhaalgorn or Vindicator into your BS gang works miracles. Roll



So you admit the only way to kill the cruisers with a Battleship gang is to use a Battleship with 90% webs? Thanks for the support!

Bhaalgorn don't have a 90% web, so no, I do not admit that. Roll
What I say is that a player who expects his 20 man Abaddon/Mael/Hyperion fleet to kill a 20 man cruiser fleet on its own without proper support are not in their right mind. Making all BS equal to allow them to do that is outrageous and something I absolutely do not support. Blink Ships like the Typhoon, Armageddon, Tempest even, Dominix, Scorp, Raven can already deal pretty effectively with all kinds of ship classes if fitted properly. Adding some advanced Ewar support BS to the mix just makes them better at what they can do.

The problem again is that BS attract too much attention and everyone and their dog flocks to the fray when someone reports roaming BS. Not even a 90% web bonus for all BS can save a BS under these circumstances. Go figure.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#44 - 2015-03-11 03:57:25 UTC
Battleship sized plates and extenders was the answer, is the answer, and will always be the answer.

There are all our dominion

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#45 - 2015-03-11 05:39:14 UTC
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:
Battleship sized plates and extenders was the answer, is the answer, and will always be the answer.

Is it? Or do modules perhaps finally need to be limited to their class type, ie: no more 1600mm, large or x-large ancillary shield boosters, 100MN afterburner or 100MN microwarpdrives on cruisers.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2015-03-11 06:09:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
I think battleships have too much ability to attack small ships. I vote they have decreased drone bays (except for the drone-oriented hulls) and then we just need to squash this idiotic idea that a battleship should beat a frigate every time. It's not as if the battleship is afraid of a lone frigate, so why should it be able to crush any frigate that chooses not to run away? What are frigates for other than scouting and tackling bigships?

Battleship sized plates and extenders is DEFINITELY the answer to their hit point problem. Battlecruisers (and even cruisers!) have way too easy of a time fitting 1600mm plates, and many battleships have a LOT more powergrid left over.

Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Is it? Or do modules perhaps finally need to be limited to their class type, ie: no more 1600mm, large or x-large ancillary shield boosters, 100MN afterburner or 100MN microwarpdrives on cruisers.
If you could only fit medium extenders and 400mm or smaller armor plates to cruisers, then they would be paying very small amounts of powergrid for very small gains in hit points. It would be akin to the hit point rigs or the armor layering modules that already exist, and would defeat the purpose of having the flat-rate variants. The idea is that you pay a large fraction of your powergrid to gain a large bonus to hit points, this is supposed to cost you other powergrid options like the biggest weapons, prop modules, repair systems, or utility highslot modules.

If the modules in question are too good for the ships that fit them, then they should either have their powergrid cost increased (a bit) or have their hit point bonus decreased (again, a bit). But I don't see this being an issue. I'd say it's not that battlecruisers have as much hit points as battleships, but rather that battleships don't have more hit points than battlecruisers.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#47 - 2015-03-11 06:49:37 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I think battleships have too much ability to attack small ships. I vote they have decreased drone bays (except for the drone-oriented hulls) and then we just need to squash this idiotic idea that a battleship should beat a frigate every time. It's not as if the battleship is afraid of a lone frigate, so why should it be able to crush any frigate that chooses not to run away? What are frigates for other than scouting and tackling big ships?

The last time I engaged two cruisers (not frigates) in a battleship I got my a** handed to me.

Quote:
Battleship sized plates and extenders is DEFINITELY the answer to their hit point problem. Battlecruisers (and even cruisers!) have way too easy of a time fitting 1600mm plates, and many battleships have a LOT more powergrid left over.

What's 'battleship size'? 3500 HP shields and 2400mm plates - or even bigger?

Arthur Aihaken wrote:
If you could only fit medium extenders and 400mm or smaller armor plates to cruisers, then they would be paying very small amounts of powergrid for very small gains in hit points. It would be akin to the hit point rigs or the armor layering modules that already exist, and would defeat the purpose of having the flat-rate variants. The idea is that you pay a large fraction of your powergrid to gain a large bonus to hit points, this is supposed to cost you other powergrid options like the biggest weapons, prop modules, repair systems, or utility highslot modules.

Except the way it works is that cruisers can generally fit large modules without sacrificing too much. The Tengu and Proteus are prime examples.

Quote:
If the modules in question are too good for the ships that fit them, then they should either have their powergrid cost increased (a bit) or have their hit point bonus decreased (again, a bit). But I don't see this being an issue. I'd say it's not that battlecruisers have as much hit points as battleships, but rather that battleships don't have more hit points than battlecruisers.

Really, 800mm plates should be cruiser or battlecruiser, 1600mm battlecruiser and something larger for battleships.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#48 - 2015-03-12 14:40:50 UTC
DHB WildCat wrote:
I have an idea to fix our problem with why Battleships ******* suck!

The biggest issue that battleships have (they have numerous, but this is just about the biggest) is the inability to apply DPS to smaller targets. Turrets have a hard time tracking, and missiles (again battleship sized weapons) just dont apply because of sig radius or speed.


A.) BBs don't suck

B.) larger ships are no meant to have an easy time tracking smaller ships

C.) despite B a Battle ship can deal full damage to cruisers or frigs using turrets and with the addition of the RHML you can wreck cruisers with missiles

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#49 - 2015-03-12 18:47:13 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
A.) BBs don't suck
B.) larger ships are no meant to have an easy time tracking smaller ships
C.) despite B a Battle ship can deal full damage to cruisers or frigs using turrets and with the addition of the RHML you can wreck cruisers with missiles

Check damage application on heavy missiles - it's abysmal. Unless your target is webbed, scrammed and painted (all 3) - you're only going to see a fraction of that DPS actually applied.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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