Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Actually it does...or if I do do it, it will mean nothing. I'm AFK and cloaked you can't see me and you go about your business in null as if I was not there.

It is precisely because of how local works now that AFK cloaking is a thing.

An AFK cloaker has never ever killed anything in any system at any time in this game. Never, ever. And the reason is obvious...trivial even. You can't do anything to kill another ship or player if you are AFK.

Or to put it differently if you died to a cloaking ship, that player was absolutely 100% not AFK when you died. This is a complete and total fact. It is indisputable...well assuming you are not as dumb as a stump.

stop with this "Schrödinger's cat" Crap omg.

Just to clarify to you, were talking about someone who was AFK cloaked becomes active at any time and can Cyno.

If local was removed then people would still required a way to hunt cloaks. And Yeah it's not a problem in WH space because they can't Cyno in a crap ton of support in there. So it's completely different.

You know whats worse, GeeShizzle MacCloud.

Even though his arguments are completely invalid cause he uses the most literal interpretation of AFK cloaking, which is not the actual issue. You have people like CCP Fozzie that use the same idiotic line. I have already stated that I think his statements about AFKs are wrong, so it makes me wonder how serious his response during The Down Under Show was.

Seriously Nikk? I am sure you have listened to the sound cloud. If he misunderstood the question then he doesnt deserve a dev position. It was pretty straight forward.

Often when games get as big as EVE has become I do question how well a Dev understands the game. With so many aspects, so many players, I dont think they have as strong a grasp on game play as the people that actually play the game. This is why there are CSMs that are from the community.

I already stated it before on the previous page. If you look at his statement. It's a very poor interpretation of AFK cloaking cause anyone that actually plays the game knows better. I mean his reasoning was to interrupt ISK making in null. In the 70 plus pages of this thread, the general consensus is, if you get camped. Move a system. The ISK continues to flow. And we all know that it isnt AFK camping that ruins the isk making of mining. You do it to make stuff, not profit from it. Least not major profit like ratting.

I did not say he misunderstood, at least not in the sense you are using.

Rather, I think he knows about designs to change things, and is avoiding saying anything to spoil the surprise.

The comment about it being psychological, suggests a rather keen understanding of this dynamic.

Local gives exactly enough information, to know someone POTENTIALLY hostile is present, while knowing exactly nothing else with any certainty.
THAT, in a very real sense, is the difference between regular space and wormholes.
(forget hot dropping for this reasoning, this thread has revealed it as a talking point, as I cannot refute the logic that equal forces to an expected hot drop can be already present in a WH, making the threat level balance for that)

In a WH, you can never be certain of your safety, and you constantly expect a hostile may be hunting for you. You never develop the expectation of safety for that reason.
In sov null, you CAN be certain of your safety whenever the pilot roster displays no neutral or hostile flagged names. That is a HUGE factor in forming expectations for play, to the point where players will both use ridiculously expensive gear, as well as reject operating except where the pilot roster is clear.

This is not a judgement on either dynamic, but simply an objective observation.
I have been a part of alliances where PvE activity was micromanaged so we would cease activities during times when a hostile was present, so I am very much aware of this perspective.
It influences choices, which result in a negative impact on gameplay not present in other areas.

I've removed an off-topic post. Please stay on topic and be respectful.

Exactly. Yes, I could get to a system and cloak then scan to see if anyone is out and about. If not, I could log off and come back later and scan again. And I can do this again and again. But why would I waste time doing this when I can go to several systems while at my keyboard. Especially in a good region with lots of good systems (security status wise) in close proximity. LIke this constellation

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Delve/O-EIMK#sec

or this one

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Querious/XLL-Z7#sec

or this one

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Feythabolis/YZKE-Q#sec

And even if I did employ this FUBAR strategy what good will it do if I don't find anything and kill nothing? Will it dissuade people from ratting in that system? No.

Even if I do bag a couple of kills, an alliance that is combat oriented will likely respond by setting a trap, so while I might bag a kill or two I'd be smarter moving on to another region. At the very least the residents will stop ratting and I'll be wasting my time.

To be quite honest, I see this strategy as being very much on the dumb end of the spectrum.

Go ahead and report. There is no trolling. AFK = Away From Keyboard. That is the acronym. You on the other hand are equivocating. Let me help you here. Equivocating means you are using deliberately unclear and confusing language. It is a form of dishonesty. For you AFK means whatever helps out your argument. That is dishonest.

Now, some might want to mimic AFK cloaking to induce players into undocking so they can get a juicy kill, but even that will entail substantial amounts of....wait for it....wait....wait....actual literal AFK cloaking. You'll want the residents to become "used to you". They'll start doing some stuff here and there. After awhile if you are patient enough they might start undocking the Good Stuff, then you'll set up a hot drop. But at first you'd be best served by logging in that cloaky alt as soon as possible and leaving him there as long as possible. So that eventually the residents go, "Oh yeah, ignore Teckos he is always here, but its been a couple of weeks and he never does anything." So absolutely for that first week I will be 99.99% AFK. The only time I'll be at my keyboard is to log in, turn on the cloak. After that, off to work, eat breakfast, go to the store, pick up the kid from swim practice, make dinner, eat dinner, etc.

As for your claim about what people encounter when dealing with an AFK cloaker you are speculating and making up numbers. You have no data. Nothing. Not even CCP has reliable data. Am I AFK if I am cloaked in a system and giving no input to the client? Maybe. Maybe I'm sitting there with another app open and writing down who I see going in and out of the station and at what times. I'm NOT AFK, but any server based attempt to determine "AFKness" would think I am.

Or suppose I am AFK, but every hour I walk by computer and double click in space at a random point. Am I AFK? 99% of the time yes, but a server based method might consider me at my keyboard.

We had an AFK cloaker in one of our systems recently. Was he AFK when I was logging in? Probably, because his alliance is primarily comprised of Germans and I am Pacific USTZ. My prime time is not his prime time.

As for AFK cloaking being sub-optimal game play from CCP's point of view? Yeah it probably is. I have nowhere said it wasn't, so not sure why you are bringing up this red herring but what the heck. And if CCP is going to "nerf" AFK cloaking I've got really bad news. Right now the handwriting on the wall is, they'll do it by making it pointless...which means a serious nerf to local chat...and hopefully a revamp/nerf to cloaks so as to try and preserve balance.

And just to be clear. Go back to the first post. Go down to the first edit. Click on the link. Look at who started that thread. Look how long it was. Look at all my posts. It should be abundantly clear I am not a fan of AFK cloaking. Nor am I fan of how local works. I think both are bad mechanics. Problem is, even though both are bad mechanics...they are balanced. So changing them will necessitate changing both. I think many PvP oriented pilots will be fine with that, assuming a reasonable and balanced change....the PvE pilots...not so much.

AFK Camping in terms of what this thread is meant to be tackling, is a misnomer. And as such refers to an act that's not AFK. Due to this the issue that this thread is about is not about being AFK or the inaction of a pilot, but the action of ganking a target after coming back from a long period of inactivity when that inactivity refers to being logged in cloaked up in space doing nothing.

In some ways, this is accurate.

But it leaves out what I consider a critical element, the tipping point that makes it such a controversial issue for so many.

High sec and much of low sec, in places where you see a great many non allied names, you have more information than is useful. In truth, the amount of information you have spikes firmly upon a set of diminishing returns, so that you have too much to make practical use of.
Do you check each name you see in local against what you would expect a ganker's killboard would look like?
Considering the names may change faster than you could look them up, this is impractical.
You can still make note and set standings when you do see a familiar hostile name, but not much else.

In wormholes, you have the fullest expectation of hostile presence.
Forget hot dropping, the squad of hostile ships is already in the system with you, and if they scan at just the right moment, you could find yourself being tackled by a swarm of these, with little to no warning.

In null, that fine balance of too much or too little actionable intel is balanced, to allow exclusive play in safety beyond a doubt.
Oh, your security can be threatened, but only by first triggering a hostile name being listed in local first.

It is almost ironic, that the ability to operate so often without uncertainty, creates such an unwillingness to function any other way.