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Exactly how safe is null sec supposed to be, anyhow?
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Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1 - 2011-12-22 16:30:19 UTC
If you'll take a moment to look in this thread here, especially around pages 11 on, you'll see that a main complaint is that it makes null sec less safe for carebears. This got me to wondering...

Just exactly how safe is null sec supposed to be anyhow? Is there supposed to be a constant degree of danger involved, should there be a point where it's safe enough for the cariest of carebears to carebear away in peace?

Opinions?

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Topaz Sky
#2 - 2011-12-22 16:35:20 UTC
Well, they get literally trillions from moon minerals, not many people go there. Their biggest complaint is AFK people using a cloak. I think CCP wants it to be a super rich island fortress for botting, which they can then conduct high sec raids from, killing "stupid pubic hairs" mining. That's CCP's effective design policy at least.
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#3 - 2011-12-22 16:37:59 UTC
presumably about as safe as a back alley in Tijuana

you may do just fine, you may wake up in a tub of ice with one of your kidneys missing.
Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#4 - 2011-12-22 16:40:25 UTC
It's currently 100% safe for non-retards and I'm glad CCP have acknowledged this are finally doing something to address perfect immunity via local.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2011-12-22 16:48:03 UTC
Lady Spank wrote:
It's currently 100% safe for non-retards and I'm glad CCP have acknowledged this are finally doing something to address perfect immunity via local.


you wish. Nothing gonna be changed about such with CSM around, and i actually dont want it changed.

Null is player driven, and if players ****** up and make null bad, more people will leave null or game, and power will shift. Thats how it is.
J Kunjeh
#6 - 2011-12-22 16:48:48 UTC
As currently designed? Very, very safe. Hence the nickname Nullbears.

"The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5) 
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#7 - 2011-12-22 17:04:37 UTC
Everyone's got a different opinion and vision of nullsec, but the general consensus is "less safe than lowsec or hisec" (except those silly few who maintain lowsec is more dangerous than nullsec).

Because nullsec is player owned, this is natural. Many people have also had very different experiences of nullsec, so it means very different things to them. For example, contrast the NAPfest existing in the bearing areas of the biggest coalitions with the crazy nature of Curse. Contrast the "safety" that CVA offers its renters with the safety that Goonswarm can offer its carebears. Carebearing is different, too, because of the varying resources available. PvP is also different: compare the "suddenly blob" nature of CFC "small" fleets, to the carefully measured few-ship gangs in other regions, and again to the (now diminished) supercap hotdrop.

In all these instances, though, a certain amount of vigilance is needed to stay "safe" while carebearing (albeit to different degrees). You see a red in local? Align / safe up / cloak up / dock up. That requires 2-3 clicks at maximum, and passively watching local to see if you're in trouble.

The "remove cloaked people from local" idea effectively removes the carebear's most effective intel tool. They would now have to watch intel channels, directional scan, be active in standing fleets, and in general be a lot less hands-off to make sure they don't suddenly get a Pilgrim dropping on top of them. This requires skills and tactics that most nullbears do not have.

It makes things complicated. Oh, and of course, anyone with a bot would also be vehemently opposed to anything of this sort.

To many, this just is not worth it. They want to see their wallet balance increase without effort or risk, and will likely move back to hisec to achieve that.

My opinion? You should not be safe in 0.0 without knowing what the hell you're doing. However, cloaks should also not be an "easy-mode" button in PvP, but can be solved by the possible/probable standing fleets made for defense. A ganky Pilgrim might be able to take a ratting battleship down, but can it take down 2-3 of them at the same time? Probably not. Or, worse: a cloaky home defense gang.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#8 - 2011-12-22 17:33:45 UTC
Here's the deal.

If you try to get to null without being in an alliance or corp that controls or rents, you will die in the Great Wall of Carebear. I write any times that this wall has bears on BOTH sides.

The risk, or hardpoint of null, is that wall.

If you use wormholes to get past this wall, you will end up deep in null systems so deserted you could rat or explore for weeks without seeing anybody else in local. That's the best case and I have had this happen twice. In most deep null systems you might see someone every few days or you might see a roaming gang or patrol from time to time.
On the other end of the spectrum, you could end up in a pipeline or hubbed system where they will bubble every gate and make every attempt to provide a fire for you to die in. Smack talk in Russian might also be provided.


What's really interesting, and this is from two years of my own experience, is that once you get past the wall, you are also getting past the "intel network" and scouts too. Deep null is so scarecely populated that unless they have the abiility to know where everybody is (they meaning the people already there who "own" it) and keep constant track of where people should not be, nobody will know enough of your presence to care. Only once have I seen a case where they were like "hey, how did this guy get here? Must have been a wormhole!!!1!! Kill kill kill!"

Later I would see on the killboards that they found the wormhole and proceeded to make life miserable for the people already in there. You'd think they never perceived that a wormhole could deposit somebody, anybody, into any system at any time before, like it was some new breach of security.

But again, I experienced myself that once you breach "the wall" and hit a deserted system, you can fill your hold with exploration goodies, and then find a WH back to high sec. Sometimes the crossing using wormholes can take a week or two, sometimes it can take 10 minutes.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#9 - 2011-12-22 17:39:15 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
~ Wormholes are awesome ~


Yes, they are. And most of 0.0 is indeed really deserted. However, to take advantage of that you have to know how to actually fly your ship, unlike most Eve players who appear to believe they are entitled to an effort-free constant income source.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2011-12-22 17:57:03 UTC
As safe - or as dangerous - as its owners make it.
Xolve
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2011-12-22 18:11:03 UTC
All that is required for any sec space to be 'safe' is for pilots there to pay attention and react accordingly... not just sit there oblivious to local, intel, flashing red boxy things..

Obviously the larger the coalition you belong to is, the safer you tend to be. Null will always have roaming gangs, there will always be the solo artists that arn't afraid of your 7-10 man gate camp, and there will always be the roaming blobs that gate-bait annihilate everything dumb enough to jump into them.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2011-12-22 19:08:20 UTC
nullsec isn't supposed to be safe

the issue is a good balance of reward vs risk; you want there to be people to murder. just increasing the risk with no increase in reward drives people out, and then everyone gets bored because there's no ratters or miners to kill

there's currently not enough people to murder so you want to tweak the balance in favor of more reward (and here, you're talking low-level reward - things that get people into belts, not things like moons or PI) rather than in favor of more risk

if you increase reward enough, then you can safely increase risk as well

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#13 - 2011-12-22 19:29:32 UTC
All of New Eden is relatively safe for experienced, intelligent pilots.

So about 15% of the server population.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#14 - 2011-12-22 23:21:45 UTC
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Lady Spank wrote:
It's currently 100% safe for non-retards and I'm glad CCP have acknowledged this are finally doing something to address perfect immunity via local.


you wish. Nothing gonna be changed about such with CSM around, and i actually dont want it changed.

Null is player driven, and if players ****** up and make null bad, more people will leave null or game, and power will shift. Thats how it is.

Except the part where they are working on it; no matter how soonTM that may be implemented.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2011-12-22 23:23:54 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
nullsec isn't supposed to be safe

the issue is a good balance of reward vs risk; you want there to be people to murder. just increasing the risk with no increase in reward drives people out, and then everyone gets bored because there's no ratters or miners to kill

there's currently not enough people to murder so you want to tweak the balance in favor of more reward (and here, you're talking low-level reward - things that get people into belts, not things like moons or PI) rather than in favor of more risk

if you increase reward enough, then you can safely increase risk as well


to add give me my sanctums back Big smile
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2011-12-22 23:25:25 UTC
Lady Spank wrote:
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Lady Spank wrote:
It's currently 100% safe for non-retards and I'm glad CCP have acknowledged this are finally doing something to address perfect immunity via local.


you wish. Nothing gonna be changed about such with CSM around, and i actually dont want it changed.

Null is player driven, and if players ****** up and make null bad, more people will leave null or game, and power will shift. Thats how it is.

Except the part where they are working on it; no matter how soonTM that may be implemented.


Well yes. Easy fix is just to ninja disband all alliances and reset all setting with some assets dissapearing shenanigans, include roles remove.

If its safe or not is entirely in the hand of overlords. They invested their time and resources to make it so..
Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#17 - 2011-12-22 23:30:16 UTC
Which part of via local do you not understand. Pretty tired of moronic NPC alt posters.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
#18 - 2011-12-22 23:32:41 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
there's currently not enough people to murder so you want to tweak the balance in favor of more reward


Just remove blue standings and lower corp/ally size.
No wonder when you have not enough targets when you soke up every soul and blue the rest.


OT: far to save when you are part of one of the mega blobs (rusian mafia, raiden, goons) espezialy when goons aren't in 00 but suizid highsec miners or now PODs.

Solution:
max corp size 200 members
max ally size 5 corps
max blues 3
That's still 3000 all together.

Bam, enough targets for everybody Twisted.

And no, you do NOT have 6000 FRIENDS!
You might have 3 to 10 real friends ... the rest are alts, people someone know who is known by a friend.

Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship!
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2011-12-22 23:33:27 UTC
Lady Spank wrote:
Which part of via local do you not understand. Pretty tired of moronic NPC alt posters.


And you care why ? Because you are weaker and your opponent is too strong..
Crying because you cant defeat them is really pathetic..

HTFU ..
Metal Icarus
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#20 - 2011-12-22 23:39:17 UTC
I am not sure where everyone got this "0.0 is safe" and "0.0 is where you get moon minerals" wtf its not like all of 0.0 is like the north. The south is comparativly worthless and now we get NC running around ready to drop 50 players on command.

Ratting is good money, LOCAL exploration is good money, thats about it. Anywhere beyond that is EXTREMLY risky. To those that think "well it should have no local or local should be nuked" have never been in a small alliance caught in between 5 massive trains on a collision course... How SAFE is it supposed to be? I did not know safe could be used in the same sentence as nullsec.

WHY IS SUCH WORTHLESS SPACE UNDER SO MUCH CONFLICT?! Go up north and fight over your god damned moons!

even provi is has more conflict than the north right now.

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