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Unexplained loss of materials

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ace jetpack
SERUM OF TRUTH
#1 - 2015-03-07 19:04:53 UTC
Hello all,

I am at a lost. I don't understand where I am losing less than 1 percent of building components when I use a advanced ship building array large /medium or small? When I compare the needed components with EPH I am right on. But as soon as I go through the process of actually building the ships when I get to number 10 I am running 1 percent short of materials!!! what is causing this lost? This never used to happen but something has changed, are there now associated lost given when building in a POS?
Paranoid Loyd
#2 - 2015-03-07 21:40:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Advanced S/M/L Ship Assembly Arrays
- T2 ship construction
- should not be used for regular ship production due to 10% increase in materials required
The advanced ship assembly arrays should only be used in w-space or deep null-sec where there are no station slots for manufacturing due to the 10% penalty in material requirements.

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/POS_Structures#Advanced_S.2FM.2FL_Ship_Assembly_Arrays

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2015-03-07 22:46:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Elena Thiesant
Sorry Loyd, but that's no longer the case.

http://community.eveonline.com/news/patch-notes/patch-notes-for-crius (Last year July)
"Advanced Assembly arrays no longer 10% have material waste. They now all have 2% material reduction like their regular counterparts"

Ace: Double check the ME that you're calculating with and the ME on the actual BPCs. Also note that material reduction is per batch, not per job. Hence 10 ships built one at a time will use more materials than 10 ships built in a single job, so make sure you're using the correct batch sizes in your tool.
Beyond that, I don't use Eve Production Manager (if that's what you meant by EPH) so can't help there. Maybe contact the developer if you can't figure it out.

Edit: If you're using IPH, there's still some bugs around batches and materials. I know Zifriam's working on them.
Charlie Nonoke
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#4 - 2015-03-07 23:26:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Charlie Nonoke
Elena speaks the truth.

If you're building 10 ships only from 10 individual BPCs, you need to calculate the materials required after ME bonuses (both from POS, and BPC) for 1 BPC, and multiply that requirement by 10.

If you're running 10 runs on 1 single line, from a 10-run BPC, then the requirements are less.

It looks like you're plugging in 10 runs in your program, but it fails to recognise that you wanted 1 continuous line, and not the 10 individual runs on it's spitting out.

Material requirements:
1 ship on a line each for 10 lines =/= 10 ships on 1 line.

The reason for this is because ME bonuses are applied after the total batch material requirement is worked out, AND then rounding up to the nearest whole number.

So if a ship requires 100 of XYZ material, if you decide to produce 10 items from a 10 run BPC on 1 single line., the TOTAL requirement is:
100 * 10 * 0.98_BPCME * 0.98_POSME = 960.4
Which requires 961 of XYZ.

If you did 10 unique lines with 10 unique BPCs each on 1 run, then:
10 * 0.98_BPCME * 0.98_POSME = 9.604
Which requires 9.7 * 10 for total runs.

So the difference is 961 versus 970.
Seems about right that you have a 1% discrepancy.

Note: This does not apply to base material requirements of 1.
So if you're building 1000 Crusaders, it doesn't matter if you've delegated 1000 runs, you do NOT just need 961 Executioners, you will still need 1000 Execs.

The incentive for 10 runs on a single line is the material bonus, but at the cost of having your jobs queued.
The incentive for 1 run on each of the 10 lines is you build simultaneously, but at the cost of sacrificing lines.

http://eve-cost.eu is a great online cost calculator.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#5 - 2015-03-08 06:24:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Sounds like OP bit by rounding issue:

Total Material = MAXIMUM(Runs , CEILING(Runs * Base Material Amount * (1 - ME %) * Other Material Reductions))

where CEILING(X) is the smallest integer not smaller than X, e.g. CEILING(1.00000000000001) = 2
ace jetpack
SERUM OF TRUTH
#6 - 2015-03-08 23:52:57 UTC
Hello all,


Seems like you guys are right on. Now I have to calculate for each job and the line I'm using instead of just calculating for batch production and then do single run production in the arrays. It seems EVEIPH hasn't been updated to calculate the difference between the two jobs as this was never really an issue. Does any one know was this an intended change to production ? If I am building T2 battleships that 1 percent difference can really determine whether or not I will be profitable or not. Does this happen in stations also ?
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#7 - 2015-03-09 01:54:59 UTC
It's an intended difference.

Jobs with higher numbers of runs are, in general, a better deal. There are edge cases, of course. Which is why you need to take those into account. (where one more run knocks a material over the limit, to make it take up another unit)


And your profit margin is 1% on materials? That sounds like you're making the wrong thing.

It happens everywhere.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2015-03-09 10:55:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Elena Thiesant
ace jetpack wrote:
It seems EVEIPH hasn't been updated to calculate the difference between the two jobs as this was never really an issue.


It's been updated for the Crius changes (current version is 3.1), this roiunding is a bug that Zifriam is still working on.
If you want to get correct profit estimates, work at the level of how many ships you'll make in a single job, then multiply that, don't enter the total number you intend to make overall.

Basically, if you intend to make 10 Kronoses one at a time, calc the profit for 1 Kronos and multiply by 10 and that's your total profit for the ships.

Quote:
Does any one know was this an intended change to production ? Does this happen in stations also ?

Yes and yes. It's listed in the change notes for Crius last year July. Material rounding is done at a batch level, not at the individual run.