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L4 Raven Navy Issue help please!

Author
Caleidascope
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2015-03-08 17:21:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Caleidascope
Defarge wrote:
Very good point Chaos, thanks. If I do stick with this setup I could drop out my 3 cap recharge rigs straight away and head for more dps. I hope you guys don't mind me slightly altering the topic, but on the point of DPS as a sniping BS I know I'm using the wrong drones. As you can probably tell from my eveboard link my drone skills are terrible. Should I be aiming for sentry drones straight away? would t1 sentry drones be better than t2 lights or mediums? I ask this because it seems Auto-aiming missiles fire at the closest target so it seems to go for the frigs first anyway so my drones just sat idle the last 4 missions.

You are correct. Auto targeting missiles go for closest rats. Frigates being the fastest rats close on you first. So they die first. It can be a problem with frigate is a trigger. On the other hand if you are 200 km away and moving away, you, usually, can trigger all the spawns and kill them and not worry about anything.

I am glad you liked my fit. I am even more glad that you have successfully used it. And yes, by its nature, being such a safe fit/tactic, it is slow. But! Now that you have seen how it works... How little tank you need... You can upgraded it.

How to upgrade.
If you compare regular cruise and auto targeting cruise, you will see that regular cruise does more damage. So, you take the FoF Navy Raven fit and you remove some of the tank. For example:
- You said that you almost never turn shield booster on. That means that you don't really need shield booster amplifier. Take the shield booster amplifier off, replace it with sensor booster with targeting range script. That will let you target rats about 130 km away.
- You used tp to get agro from rats, this agro is needed to turn auto targeting launchers on. Since we ARE NOT using auto targeting missiles, we don't need tp. Put another signal booster there and load it with targeting range script.

Now that you have two signal boosters with targeting range scripts, you should be getting 150-180 km targeting range. The tactic stays the same, warp in, head away from rats, lmjd 100 km, manually target rats, start killing them with your regular cruise missiles and count your volleys.

Notes.
- The elite npc frigs (they have 3 words in their name) will eat your drones. Kill them first if you want to keep your drones alive.
- Don't forget that you do have drones! Use them on the regular rat frigs (2 words in their name) while you kill cruisers/bc/bs.
- Since I am lazy and don't want to manage drones, I only use light scouts. So I would have 5 salvage drones and the rest light scout drones. I don't mess around with medium and heavy drones, too much work. ☺
- Some rats are triggers so be careful, read eve survival so you know what to kill and in which order.
- The above fit might need more cpu, you might want co-processor in low slot. To play it safe do 3x bcs, 1x co-processor, 1x dc. Or you can do 4x bcs, 1x co-processor.
- To avoid cpu troubles, upgraded bcs to faction (caldari navy ballistic control system) as soon as possible. They use less cpu and do more dps. Either buy them on the market or farm tags and get them from lp store, or farm tags and get bpc from lp store and build them yourself.
- Rigor Rigor Rigor Rigor Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! rigs. Forget other rigs.

Life is short and dinner time is chancy

Eat dessert first!

Caleidascope
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2015-03-08 17:36:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Caleidascope
Defarge wrote:
Am on for a good few more hours if anyone feels like contacting me in game ;-) still confused on which direction to head in really. None are a quick-fix and will involve more weeks of training.

It seems that at this point your biggest issue are the skills.

Notice that the rattlesnake dude said that rattlesnake needs even MORE skills...

So, it does not really matter what ship you choose, you don't have enough sills to max out either ship.

Get your skills to 4, then it will be time to decide what ship to fly because that is where you have to choose which skills to push to 5. A bs 5 skill takes 30-33 days. Get it? For raven you need just one bs 5 skill, 30 days. For rattlesnake you need 2 bs 5 skills, 60 days. 30 days vs 60 days? Don't worry about ships. Work your raven to run missions.

Or switch to guns and come run incrusions in gun bs. 90-100 mil isk per hour. I have flown with WTM and TVP doing HQ incrusion sites. I have used machariel, navy apocalypse, nightmare. WTM is easier on noobs, you can bring t1 bs, just fit it according to WTM website fits (one faction mode, the rest are t2 and t1).

Life is short and dinner time is chancy

Eat dessert first!

Defarge
Outfit 418
Blue Loot Not Included
#23 - 2015-03-08 17:36:58 UTC
Actually have already taken the lead on the upgrade Caleidascope as you're absolutely right, the fit is wonderful! I'm using it on my mission runner and spending some time on an alt learning exploration since it is so safe :P One problem I've run into on the upgrade so far is that with 2x sensor boosters I get 200km+ so targeting isn't a problem yet with t2 faction cruise missiles I'm only getting a max flight range of 127km. Guessing this is skill related but i'll be darned if I can pick which skill it is heheh. Thanks for the fantastically detailed post!
Defarge
Outfit 418
Blue Loot Not Included
#24 - 2015-03-08 17:39:58 UTC
Yeah did some looking into the rattlesnake and while it does look good I think for now atleast the Raven is where I should stay. Nothing stopped me from continuing training onto a rattlesnake once I'm done with my raven skills :)
Caleidascope
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2015-03-08 17:43:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Caleidascope
Defarge wrote:
Actually have already taken the lead on the upgrade Caleidascope as you're absolutely right, the fit is wonderful! I'm using it on my mission runner and spending some time on an alt learning exploration since it is so safe :P One problem I've run into on the upgrade so far is that with 2x sensor boosters I get 200km+ so targeting isn't a problem yet with t2 faction cruise missiles I'm only getting a max flight range of 127km. Guessing this is skill related but i'll be darned if I can pick which skill it is heheh. Thanks for the fantastically detailed post!

There are actually two skills.
1) Increases missile speed (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Missile_Projection)
2) Increases missile flight time (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Missile_Bombardment)
Speed x Time = Distance.

There are a couple other skills that pretty much is a must for missile ship.

Also don't forget implants in slots 6-10. You can get them on the market, from lp store or even drop in a mission (there was real nice one like that).

Life is short and dinner time is chancy

Eat dessert first!

Defarge
Outfit 418
Blue Loot Not Included
#26 - 2015-03-08 17:51:17 UTC
both at lvl 4, guess time to pick one to lvl to 5 and bunker down ;-) thanks again for the help, will check for implants too!
stoicfaux
#27 - 2015-03-08 18:42:54 UTC
Raven a la Liang
Navy Raven a la Liang
One Shotting Non-Elite NPC Cruisers a la Stoicfaux

As others have noted, the MJD tank strategy is viable.

As others have noted, but it bears re-repeating, using a single Cap Booster (that uses Cap charges) can replace many, many, oh so many mid, low and rig slots devoted to cap regeneration (e.g. cap rechargers, capacitor flux relays, CCC rigs.) In place of cap modules/rigs you can use the now-free slots for damage application (i.e. applied DPS) and tank (but Gank is also tank.)

If you have less than stellar skills or have a ship full of capacitor regen modules, then stick to T1 ammo. If you mount 3 Rigor/Flare[1] rigs, 1 or more TPs, and have your explosion radius and explosion velocity skills at IV+, then use Fury. Raw DPS isn't meaningful unless you can actually apply the damage to the target, so Rigor/Flare rigs and a TP or three are a must when using Fury ammo.

Missile Damage Formulas and overview a la Eve University.



[1] Rigor II > Flare II > Rigor I > Flare I

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#28 - 2015-03-08 19:37:28 UTC
There are a few problems with a FoF missile setup:

1. You're doing about 25-35% less real damage than you would with Furies.
2. Damage application vs. anything smaller than battlecruisers is abysmal.
3. You will lose more volleys in transit as range increases when targets are destroyed.
4. NPC battleships have a tendency to cluster at the same distance, which means your damage gets distributed between 3 or more targets as their shields and armor repair.

When you factor these all in, your overall DPS is probably closer to 400. A Barghest offers the best FoF setup due to missile velocity, but you're trading +10% missile damage for -25% missile damage application. Then we can compare it to the Rattlesnake which gets 4x more actual DPS.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Defarge
Outfit 418
Blue Loot Not Included
#29 - 2015-03-08 20:00:47 UTC
So it would seem my quickest way to be able to efficiently do lvl 4s would be to upgrade the kalidescope fit by not using the fof. So I need more missile range. Think the path is clear... I think! :)
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#30 - 2015-03-08 20:06:28 UTC
Defarge wrote:
So it would seem my quickest way to be able to efficiently do lvl 4s would be to upgrade the kalidescope fit by not using the fof. So I need more missile range. Think the path is clear... I think! :)

It all comes down to DPS and damage application.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Caleidascope
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2015-03-08 20:14:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Caleidascope
Defarge wrote:
So it would seem my quickest way to be able to efficiently do lvl 4s would be to upgrade the kalidescope fit by not using the fof. So I need more missile range. Think the path is clear... I think! :)

Yes. Now that you have a good fit, that does any mission any time and you know what to expect from the rats, start using regular cruise missiles.

The main emphasis of my fof fit is that instead of struggling... loosing time, loosing ships, not making isk, not making lp, loosing isk, and getting frustrated in general, you get a fit that does the missions with some ease. You get the experience, you get isk, you get lp, you get loot and salvage, you get confident. But all these good things come with a price. The price is that missions take longer to run with my fof fit.

Carry regular and 2k of auto targeting missiles for gurista and serp missions. If gurista jam you, reload with auto targeters and keep on killing them. If serp damp your sensor range, reload with auto targeters and keep killing them. Other rat factions don't really do anything too terrible so just use regular t1 ammo on them.

Rigor rigs is key to killing frigs and cruisers. I think it takes one salvo from navy raven with t1 cruise missiles to kill regular rat cruiser, but that is with all 5 skills and 3x rigor rigs.

Once you get your navy raven maxed out. You can go and add the skills needed for rattlesnake. By that time you only need the drone skills and ship command skills. Your missile, shield, etc. skills would be at 5 already because you trained them when you maxed out your navy raven.

Life is short and dinner time is chancy

Eat dessert first!

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#32 - 2015-03-08 23:18:28 UTC
Caleidascope wrote:
The main emphasis of my fof fit is that instead of struggling... loosing time, loosing ships, not making isk, not making lp, loosing isk, and getting frustrated in general, you get a fit that does the missions with some ease. You get the experience, you get isk, you get lp, you get loot and salvage, you get confident. But all these good things come with a price. The price is that missions take longer to run with my fof fit.

And this is of course a valid point. In my experience, the Navy Raven does not perform as well as the Barghest with a FoF setup. There are a few reasons for this:

1. The Navy Raven has a larger signature radius, slower velocity and inertia - which means you can't tank or negate a lot of damage through velocity.
2. The Navy Raven has a limited capacitor, less shields and passive shield recharge - which means relying more on burst shield boosting and micromanagement.
3. The Navy Raven loses a lot of FoF volleys due to transit when targets are destroyed, so even without the damage application bonus you're still doing more raw DPS with the Barghest.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Defarge
Outfit 418
Blue Loot Not Included
#33 - 2015-03-09 06:14:54 UTC
With the barghest's 50% penalty to missile flight time I'm guessing that's more of an 'in your face' strategy not the sniping type :)
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#34 - 2015-03-09 10:13:49 UTC
Defarge wrote:
With the barghest's 50% penalty to missile flight time I'm guessing that's more of an 'in your face' strategy not the sniping type :)

You do realize this is more than offset with the +200% missile velocity bonus, yes?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#35 - 2015-03-09 11:29:33 UTC
Just for something different, I cooked up an alternate L4 mission missile fit that's actually a riot to fly. The short version is that it's cap stable, applies near-perfect DPS without webs or target painters, zips around quickly (between missions, gates, objectives), is not heavily skill-intensive and won't break the bank @ $464-million (~) ISK - so it'll pay for itself in about 8 hours.

Polarized Orthrus

5x Polarized Heavy Assault Missile Launchers (Rage Heavy Assault Missiles)
Auto Targeting System II (gives you 10 targets)
5x Warrior II drones

Federation Navy 100MN Afterburner
Gistum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amplifier II
2x Cap Recharger II

3x Ballistic Control System II
Power Diagnostic System II

2x Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
1x Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst I

Recommended Implants: Zor Navigation Link and Hyper-Link

With Low or Mid-Grade Nomad implants, you get an align time of something insane like 2.5 seconds - which also ensures that you both accelerate quicker and orbit at higher velocities. The extra inertia also ensures you enter and exit warp faster, so you're actually getting the equivalent of around 4 AU/s warp speed. Obviously the ship is paper thin in terms of tank (9.35k), so safe undocks are recommended at your favourite mission haunts.

With perfect V skills this deals 951 selective DPS with missiles to 35.4km (Javelins yield 661 DPS at 64.2km, with Faction somewhere in-between). Drones will deliver another 80-100 DPS depending on selection (I prefer Warriors). Polarized launchers hold 198 rounds (!) of heavy assault ammunition, so you'll almost never need to reload during any phase (or even entire missions). The rate of fire is around 2.5 seconds/volley, so you'll rarely lose a volley in-transit when a target is destroyed. The Auto-Targeting System (optional) is just to give you more targets to lock-up.

With a bit of bling and a few missile implants this thing will actually dish out close to 1200 DPS! Yes, you do need to maneuver around a bit - but at 1738 m/s (2454 m/s overheated) it really doesn't take very long. A Core X-Type 100MN Afterburner actually pushes this to 1921 m/s (2729 m/s overheated) and actually frees up a bit more capacitor if you're short on skills.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Defarge
Outfit 418
Blue Loot Not Included
#36 - 2015-03-29 12:08:39 UTC
22 days went quick! quick update with what's going on with me! Changed from grinding caldari navy missions to sisters so now live in (censored) running L4s.

Current fit:

CNR

cruise missile launcher II x8
active shield resists (dissipation field ii) (faction specific) x2
meta 4 tps x2
caldari navy shield boost amp
x-large pith b-type shield booster
caldari navy ballistic control system x4
drone damage amplifier ii

2x rigor 1
1x large liquid cooled electronics rig

using t2 missiles

drones are
1x gecko
1x vespa ii
3x hornet ii

DPS
drones 213.1
missiles 856.3
total 1069.4


So I'm getting used to the missions and noting down times to complete in current setup. Think my goal is to figure out which missions are best to blitz for LP return. Fairly confident with my current fit. I keep a MJD and sensor booster ii with my other mission supplies in hub incase I need to snipe a perticularly hard mission but haven't ran into one yet. So to finish maxing out my cnr I've started training all missile skills from 4-5 and caldari bs from 4 to 5. After that I'm not certain. Considering updating to heavy drones but with the cnr I don't think I could have any heavies out with the gecko.

Would love some comment to see if I could tighten what I'm doing, thanks guys! :)
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#37 - 2015-03-29 12:20:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Defarge wrote:
Would love some comment to see if I could tighten what I'm doing, thanks guys! :)

It's a fairly solid fit, so there's not a lot I can suggest. By going with a T2 BCU you're only losing about 1.25% DPS (although that does reduce CPU by 16). I would be more inclined to do that, save the ~85m ISK and drop the DDA in favor of a co-processor which would allow you to run another rigor. I would also upgrade two of the rigors to T2s, so instead of a -40% signature radius you get -60% (that's 50% more damage application). You may find that you can get away with a single TP, but if not - a pair of target painters with the upgraded rigors will allow you to use Fury ammunition against even cruisers. Good luck.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Defarge
Outfit 418
Blue Loot Not Included
#38 - 2015-03-29 12:47:25 UTC
Using t2 faction ammo against cruisers at the minute to be honest mate, almost always pop them in one volley. Battleship rats usually take 3 volleys to pop so I'm wondering how the investment of 200mil (t2 rig) would improve my performance. One thing I would like to fit is a prop mod as slowboating to the gate when I forget to set approach on warp in is painful and really kills my completion time :)
stoicfaux
#39 - 2015-03-29 13:31:41 UTC
Defarge wrote:


Would love some comment to see if I could tighten what I'm doing, thanks guys! :)


If you need a prop mode for the few missions that require one (and if you cannot decline those missions,) then drop the sig amp (or BCU II) for a cpu and one of the TPs for the prop mod. Another consideration is downgrading the shield booster to a c-type to save on CPU.

The Sig Amp is there because 110km is pretty much the highest range that level 4 NPCs will be at. Upgrading the Rigors to 2xRigor II + Flare II is a personal choice due to cost. Carry Hobgoblins and Warriors to deal with frigates.

[Raven Navy Issue, New Setup 1]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Ballistic Control System II
Signal Amplifier II

Pith B-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Explosive Deflection Field II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2015-03-29 13:59:45 UTC
Yeah in a navy raven you don't really have to go too far with application rigs since it already has a 25% bonus to application.

Definitely make room for a MWD somewhere, btw i wouldn't be surprised now if someone hunted you down and killed you in high sec after you posted your fit.
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