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Fix the Industry Index

Author
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1 - 2015-03-07 23:57:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Disclaimer: This post is tangentially related to the proposed New Sov System [NSS for short], but it is more broad than that and could be part of ANY Sov Revamp or even the current Sov system. In fact, I'd argue it should be part of the current system because the current industry index is severely broken.

Background: Currently the industry index is determined simply the amount of mining in a system[1]. That is it.

Now most people when hearing the word industry would think the following,

Quote:
economic activity concerned with the processing of raw materials and manufacture of goods in factories.


or they might think,

Quote:
the aggregate of manufacturing or technically productive enterprises in a particular field, often named after its principal product


or possibly,

Quote:
any general business activity; commercial enterprise:


Basically, industry broadly defined would be activities that add value to "things". Here in the U.S. we have this thing called the Standard Industrial Classifications which assign industries four digit codes (hence the term SIC Codes--note the SIC Code has given way to the NAICS code system). We can see that most reasonable people would include the following as being part of "industry":


  • Production/manufacturing
  • Invention
  • Planetary Interaction
  • Copying
  • Researching
  • Mining
  • Refining


Suggested Revision to Industrial Index: Pretty simple really, change the determination of the industrial index to include the items in the above list. When even EVE players think of industrial players they think of the above list. If you were to join an industrial corp you will find that they engage in the above activities to varying degrees.

Additionally it can be argued that POS that have things like CSAAs, moon mining arrays, labs, factories, and/or their activites should be counted as well. The reason is simple, they all put things into the EVE economy or they take things in the EVE economy and make them better/more useful.[2]

Currently the industry indexes in null sec are pathetic. Including the above list in the calculation of the industry index would fix this.

Weighting: I have seen comments about this topic about how including these things for determining the industrial index is Bad™ since things like PI and moon mining do not really necessitate daily logging in when for example the military index typically does. However, the problem with this argument is that it assumes every industrial activity has to contribute to the index the same amount. However, that does not have to be the case. For example, mining might contribute the most because it will necessitate at least having players logged in on a routine basis. The lowest contributing factor might be moon mining which might have a person logging in 1x a week.

For planetary interaction the contribution might be tied to the amount of materials flowing through custom offices. Note the word through. Simply filling a customs office hangar and leaving it would count nothing towards the index. It would have to be picked up.

CCP has a huge amount of data and there is considerable research on price indices so that any new index for industry could be structured as to be non-manipulable--i.e. players cannot game it[3].

The Proposed Sov System: CCP has proposed a new sov system that will rely in part on the industry index to determine how long it takes to throw sov structures into reinforcement mode. By not adjusting the clearly broken and partial industry index that is currently in place the time it will take will probably range from 10 to 25 minutes for even the most populated and heavily used systems. This further highlights the problem with EVE sov null sec indices.

I know a ton of miners in nullsec: A comment one can find on the forums periodically (e.g. see here) but even if you do "know a ton of miners in nullsec" that does not mean there are a ton of miners in nullsec.

[1] That source is a bit old, and exploration may contribute to the industry index, but that is not a very large group of players and if there is a contribution it is likely minimal given that exploration takes place over many systems.

[2] For example, does anyone care about hypersynaptic fibers in and of themselves? No. Players care about them because you can use them to make things like particle accelerators. Does anyone care about particle accelerators in and of themselves? No. Players care about particle accelerators because they are used in Tech 2 Blasters which players DO care about. All of these activities are done so we can have Tech 2 versions blasters, drone navigation computers, drone link augmentors, etc. All of these activities are industrial activities pure and simple. Yes, along the way players will make isk for themselves at each stage. That is how capitalism works. The beauty of this is that we put isk in player's wallets, so they can buy the Tech 2 items and also Tech 1 items, so they can go have fun. The economy is really a big circle. Hopefully a circle that is getting bigger.

[3] Also, if there are loopholes that players do find to manipulate the index, then declare them exploits and re-work the formula. This all boils down to mathematics and so while the initial implementation might have issues/problems tweaking the formula would fix them.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Madd Adda
#2 - 2015-03-08 00:18:30 UTC
isn't the index player determined? if that's the case, what can CCP do about it?

Carebear extraordinaire

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2015-03-08 00:29:03 UTC
What do you mean player determined? If you mean number of players no. If you mean based on player actions then in part yes. It is based on how much you mine (possible exploration). My argument is broaden the list of activities that the index is based on to cover additional industrial activities.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Madd Adda
#4 - 2015-03-08 00:44:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Madd Adda
[REDACTED]

Carebear extraordinaire

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#5 - 2015-03-08 01:56:12 UTC
Madd Adda wrote:
that's the thing though, players are what determine the index through the actions they do, not CCP. The index isn't some table CCP can change, it's an ethereal concept the players use. I don't see what CCP can do to "broaden" it.

Uh, yes it is some table CCP can change. it's not some ethereal concept.
It's a game mechanic. With a measurement dictated by CCP. And the current measurement is insanely hard to reach.
So CCP certainly can alter the measurements.
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#6 - 2015-03-08 02:09:00 UTC
Supported. If building things doesn't count as industrial activity, then why should killing NPCs count as military activity?

The industrial index is definitely broken as is, but I think the game would be better served by removing it entirely. CCP like to refer to EVE as a sandbox™ but then they go and invent all these artificial restrictions on gameplay like sov indices. Fixing sov is easy - get rid of it. Let anyone build what they want, where they want to build it. Then let anyone else come along and knock it down.

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.

Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2015-03-08 02:21:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
Supported. If building things doesn't count as industrial activity, then why should killing NPCs count as military activity?

The industrial index is definitely broken as is, but I think the game would be better served by removing it entirely. CCP like to refer to EVE as a sandbox™ but then they go and invent all these artificial restrictions on gameplay like sov indices. Fixing sov is easy - get rid of it. Let anyone build what they want, where they want to build it. Then let anyone else come along and knock it down.


It's always funny to see those that do not take part in an activity call for it's removal.

Total sandboxes are fairly dull to be honest. There's no point in holding something unless you can put your stamp on it, and "This nameless bit of nowhere where I happen to be squatting atm" is absolutely the least inspiring thing to protect possible.

To the OP, +1. Industry index should encompass mining, refining, production, reactions, moon mining, alchemy, research, invention, copying. Anything and everything that is related to in game industry.

It seems incredibly silly that a thriving system of refining, invention, and production would have an industrial index of 0 simply because they mined the actual ore a few jumps away, compressed it, and jumped it to a refinery station for processing.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2015-03-08 07:27:14 UTC
Just listened to EVE Down Under (episode 97) where Fozzie discusses indices. He basically made the claim that CCP is just too damn lazy to fix these. If it isn't space based and "disruptable" then it will not count.

That is just simple laziness on CCPs part. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#9 - 2015-03-08 07:44:40 UTC
Being mining only is and always was stupid. I used to have an alliance that wanted people to mine in a system 24/7. They didn't build anything with the ore, but they wanted the index higher so they could access ABC easier when they wanted it. Which was never, cause they imported everything from highsec.

+1 OP
Belinda HwaFang
Iris Kinetics - Aquisitions
#10 - 2015-03-08 08:01:19 UTC
+1 to you sir.

I've casually thought about this "industry index" in the past, and with the coming changes it is suddenly much more relevant and important than ever before.

Ultimately I believe that the system needs to reward all kinds of activities, including but not only mining.

--
Fang
Virgil Armstrong
Sunrise Services
#11 - 2015-03-08 09:29:02 UTC
I guess CCP wants locally generated industry, not industry based on Jita sourced jump freighters.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2015-03-08 15:18:14 UTC
Virgil Armstrong wrote:
I guess CCP wants locally generated industry, not industry based on Jita sourced jump freighters.


What makes you think that? Yes CCP has stated that in the past, but really nothing about it has happened.

t2 still requires importing basically everything due to regional lack of moon goo types.
Mineral ratios in belts and anoms still blow for production.
Industry index still only takes in mining into account.

If CCP wants nullsec industry to shift to local production, they have a really odd way of showing it.
Iain Cariaba
#13 - 2015-03-08 16:30:07 UTC
Supported.

Industry rating being based only on one form of industry makes no sense. It's like the military index being based solely on the number of npc frigates killed in belts only. Moon mining, however, should be left out of the equation, or at the very least have minimal impact. It's too arbitrary based on what moons are there, and even more AFK than PI.
Luna Arindale
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#14 - 2015-03-08 18:14:48 UTC
I find it rather weird that a single smart bombing battleship can grind a system to lv 5 mil index within a short amount of time. yet it requires 30+ miners mining over several days to get up to the point where they might get the index to 5 before being camped by tons of people for months. In terms of risk vs reward miners in sov nullsec get the rawest end of the deal in terms of effort required for their bonuses.

Now it takes that much to get there, but again to maintain a military index it requires only one person, and they can make 20+ mil every 20 minutes in relative saftey. Miners can quickly lose indexes at the higher levels if there aren't 15 people mining 24/7. While it would be interesting for the industry index to be effected by number of jobs in a system. I would rather see a decrease in the required m3 to get the higher end sites to spawn, and a decrease in the amount of m3 required to keep it. This way smaller groups coming into the new sov system can actually benefit off of the industry index defense bonuses, and so that even compact groups can use their space more effectively.

I would also like to see the indexes rebalanced in general. Currently it requires a stupidly crazy amount of miners compared to people ratting to achieve lesser results. While miners don't need anymore buffs to isk/hour as it is pretty well balanced, I would like to see the industry index changed, but not in a way that can't be disrupted by other players.

So, -1 to this idea as it basically gives infinite isk bonuses with undisruptible jobs, but +1 for trying to get an actual discussion of this going I would rather see it done differently than give every system an index of 5 because of moons.
Iain Cariaba
#15 - 2015-03-08 18:48:21 UTC
Luna Arindale wrote:
So, -1 to this idea as it basically gives infinite isk bonuses with undisruptible jobs, but +1 for trying to get an actual discussion of this going I would rather see it done differently than give every system an index of 5 because of moons.

Yes, leave moon mining, PI, and station jobs out of the formula. At least give them a very, very, very small influence into the induxtry rating. Give people a reason to put up POSes to build things instead of all non-super production being done in the safety of outposts.
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#16 - 2015-03-08 20:18:10 UTC
The problem with the system index as current is that a single person can take the index of a system that is at 1, and very quickly make it up to 4 or 5... a single person can do that... which tells me that something is broken with the system.

They put it in to get people to move around, but the very act of moving will make it as high or higher than the place you just left. I tried moving once, within a short amount of time the new system had scaled right up to where my old system was, because I was using it. Yeah, it would go down if I completely stopped doing things, but then the problem is I am not doing things...

They had implemented teams as a way to get around the extra cost index, but then they just straight took teams out cause they didn't know how to make a proper auction system or didn't understand that 95% of people that even looked at teams didn't care for the endless streams of 0.5% Time Efficiency production teams for small T1 modules/ships that really only took a few hours to build anyways.

So they took them out and left industry overall worse off, all by itself with the poorly designed cost index. CCP needs to change the formula for the index to actually make a difference and not be so easily swayed by a single person.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2015-03-08 20:21:46 UTC
Dangeresque Too wrote:
~snip~


Completely wrong topic bro.

We are talking about the industrial nullsec index, not the per system activity index that increases usage fees.

Although that could be integrated into the nullsec system as well ofc in some way.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#18 - 2015-03-09 03:40:34 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Luna Arindale wrote:
So, -1 to this idea as it basically gives infinite isk bonuses with undisruptible jobs, but +1 for trying to get an actual discussion of this going I would rather see it done differently than give every system an index of 5 because of moons.

Yes, leave moon mining, PI, and station jobs out of the formula. At least give them a very, very, very small influence into the induxtry rating. Give people a reason to put up POSes to build things instead of all non-super production being done in the safety of outposts.


Moon mining and PI mean undocking and going into space. You have to get the product to market after all (be that market in null sec, or in high sec).

Similarly for most other "station based activities". Yes, once I have PI goods, T2 components, minerals, BPOs, etc. into station there is not much you can do to stop me, but I have to get those items into station...i.e. I still have to undock periodically.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Gabriel Elarik
Celestiel Rams
#19 - 2015-03-09 05:45:46 UTC
i agree miners need much more efford for indu lvl 4-5 than some ratters the indexes need to be re-balanced
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#20 - 2015-03-10 03:01:18 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Luna Arindale wrote:
So, -1 to this idea as it basically gives infinite isk bonuses with undisruptible jobs, but +1 for trying to get an actual discussion of this going I would rather see it done differently than give every system an index of 5 because of moons.

Yes, leave moon mining, PI, and station jobs out of the formula. At least give them a very, very, very small influence into the induxtry rating. Give people a reason to put up POSes to build things instead of all non-super production being done in the safety of outposts.


Oh, and depending on what you are making...that stuff has to get to market which usually means Jita which again necessitates undocking.

On Eve Down Under CCP Fozzie made the following argument against things like building counting for the industry index:

Player installs a big batch of jobs. Delivers the product and then reprocesses the output and reinstalling (admittedly a smaller job) and doing so until there isn't any more reprocessing that can be done.

Granted this is a Bad Thing™ but to CCP Fozzie...dude have you never heard of decreasing returns to scale?

For example, the more one produces of any given item, the less it contributes to the index. This would promote diversification of the production process. Another way to influence is to give T2 production a larger effect on the index. This way people would be less likely to try and manipulate the process.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

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