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[EMERG] [TBI] Dr. Hilen Tukoss' Citizenship

Author
John Revenent
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#21 - 2015-03-06 19:25:17 UTC
Korsavius wrote:
It's about time he was stripped of his citizenship.


Agreed.

Ishukone Loyalist - Private Contractor

"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."

Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#22 - 2015-03-06 19:38:57 UTC
Tukoss losing citizenship at this point has only symbolic meaning.

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Frenjo Borkstar
Doomheim
#23 - 2015-03-06 20:25:47 UTC
Kalaratiri wrote:
Frenjo Borkstar wrote:
Jennifer Starfall wrote:
I'd keep a tight control on your hero worship there, Dr. Borkstar.


There's no hero worship involved, Dr. Tukoss is an important man, and he cannot be allowed to be condemned and discredited, especially due to the fact he's currently being held somewhere against his will by an unknown party.

This is a precautionary measure, to protect both Arek'Jaalan's interests, and Dr. Tukoss' should he be found and/or arrive back to safety.


For the record, are you claiming that just because a man has some influence or importance then he cannot be allowed to be criticized? That if someone is important that puts them completely above reproach? Because what?


I am claiming the knowledge he carries could be vital to all of humankind, no matter what race, gender, et cetera.

Viriel,

Borkstar Laboratories,

The Borkstar Initiative.

Alexi Komanov
The Kronos Ritual
#24 - 2015-03-06 20:45:29 UTC
It's important to weigh Mr. Tukoss' value with the fact that he may have been compromised by the enemy. His long absence and presumed captivity by the Sleepers are indications that he may no longer be who he says (or even thinks) he is. If/when he resurfaces I would advise extreme caution in interacting with him.
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#25 - 2015-03-06 20:47:52 UTC
Alexi Komanov wrote:
It's important to weigh Mr. Tukoss' value with the fact that he may have been compromised by the enemy. His long absence and presumed captivity by the Sleepers are indications that he may no longer be who he says (or even thinks) he is. If/when he resurfaces I would advise extreme caution in interacting with him.


Couldn't agree with this more.

-Eran
Frenjo Borkstar
Doomheim
#26 - 2015-03-06 20:50:12 UTC
Alexi Komanov wrote:
It's important to weigh Mr. Tukoss' value with the fact that he may have been compromised by the enemy. His long absence and presumed captivity by the Sleepers are indications that he may no longer be who he says (or even thinks) he is. If/when he resurfaces I would advise extreme caution in interacting with him.


That's my point, we need to get him to a safe location, then assertain what's gone on these past years.

Viriel,

Borkstar Laboratories,

The Borkstar Initiative.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#27 - 2015-03-06 20:56:48 UTC
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:
Tukoss losing citizenship at this point has only symbolic meaning.

Ah ... well....

Only sort of?

Corporate citizenship in the Caldari State is bound into ... well, essentially every legal right a person has.

Until now, even if he'd ended up back in Caldari hands, any crimes he was accused of would have been reviewed by a corporate tribunal. Contracts he made could be legally enforced. And so on.

Now, as a nonentity, he can be shot on sight, even if he's not suspected of any specific crime. Agreements with him, even formal contracts, are legally unenforceable because he has no legal standing.

He's formally "not a person" until someone (like the Minmatar Republic) decides to give that standing to him.

Whether Dr. Borkstar can actually provide that standing on his own is ... unless this has happened before ... probably an open question. Capsuleers as legal entities work kind of like miniature autocratic nation states, but our independence is a matter of fact, not formality (though our formal legal rights are still pretty extreme).

We can certainly grant people in our care fairly high levels of security, but Dr. Tukoss might have to set up housekeeping in Dr. Borkstar's hangar if he's lucky enough to find his way there.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#28 - 2015-03-07 02:11:33 UTC
As far as I'm aware Mr. Tukoss is a capsuleer under CONCORD, if so then he can just claim the same extralegal and extraterritorial rights any CONCORD registered capsuleer can claim when operating in the areas of CONCORD signatories which makes the revoking of his Ishukone corporate citizenship a symbolic gesture unless Mr. Tukoss decides legal rights in the Caldari State is of importance.

Although corporate citizenship can always be such an odd thing, speaking from personal experience. Kaalakiota revoked my own corporate citizenship last year under allegations of treason. I then claimed political asylum in the Federation and was granted citizenship and transferred it to a Caldari Prime district under Freedom of Immigration clauses. Then all of a sudden Kaalakiota corporate courts retract all charges, re-instate my corporate citizenship, grant my request for official retirement and I'm finally able to claim my CFU pension fund. I suppose I should be glad that such misunderstandings occurred, it at least has meant I am now afforded certain legal rights irrespective of whether I am in a Federal or Ishukone district when I am on the soil of Home.

Of course in the case of Mr. Tukoss his citizenship, I assume was, revoked on the grounds that he's potentially not the actual person registered with House of Records and listed on Ishukone files.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#29 - 2015-03-07 03:26:35 UTC
This is a disturbing development.

Something has scared Mother Ishukone enough that she has disowned one of her Most Wanted.

Katrina Oniseki

Frenjo Borkstar
Doomheim
#30 - 2015-03-07 11:10:53 UTC
Something indeed is going on.

Dr. Tukoss may possibly carry information and technology that is vital to all of humanity, as i've said before.
We can't let petty corporations and corporate squabbles get in the way of our continued future.

Viriel,

Borkstar Laboratories,

The Borkstar Initiative.

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#31 - 2015-03-07 15:06:48 UTC
Frenjo Borkstar wrote:


There's no hero worship involved, Dr. Tukoss is an important man, and he cannot be allowed to be condemned and discredited, especially due to the fact he's currently being held somewhere against his will by an unknown party.

Hes being "discredited" by the Caldari. That hardly counts for anything.

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Zero Vigilant
Adamantine Corporation
#32 - 2015-03-07 15:28:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Zero Vigilant
We must remember that he has been apprehended, thus it would be appropriate to consider him compromised but revoking citizenship...

EDIT: My inability to read has failed me once more, I just noticed now that someone already mentioned that he has been captured. But, it still never hurts to remind you.
Eojek
Starlight Moly
#33 - 2015-03-07 15:30:43 UTC
Stripping him of his "ciitzanship" is little more than a symbolic gesture of displeasure over his presence. His capsule contract is likely in good standing, and if not, is a small matter to negotiate his contract. His citizanship to any of the empires is easily shifted, be those empires Matarii, Gallante, Amarr, or Minmatar, or any of the other empires outside the big four.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#34 - 2015-03-07 18:51:14 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
As far as I'm aware Mr. Tukoss is a capsuleer under CONCORD, if so then he can just claim the same extralegal and extraterritorial rights any CONCORD registered capsuleer can claim when operating in the areas of CONCORD signatories which makes the revoking of his Ishukone corporate citizenship a symbolic gesture unless Mr. Tukoss decides legal rights in the Caldari State is of importance.

True. Except that his capsuleer status might have been quietly revoked.

If they're afraid that he's been ... well, somethinged, by the Sleepers or some other, unknown power, I can't imagine they'd want him to have access to capsuleer resources.

At a guess, they're probably not planning to kill him. That would be a waste; I agree with Dr. Borkstar that far. It would be more practical for them to be preparing the legal framework for his detention.

This has the potential to be a problem on a different order from the likes of Nauplius, so if they can do it, I suspect they'd do it now.

Just because they generally don't doesn't mean that they can't.
Frenjo Borkstar
Doomheim
#35 - 2015-03-11 11:30:32 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
True. Except that his capsuleer status might have been quietly revoked.
If they're afraid that he's been ... well, somethinged, by the Sleepers or some other, unknown power, I can't imagine they'd want him to have access to capsuleer resources.
At a guess, they're probably not planning to kill him. That would be a waste; I agree with Dr. Borkstar that far. It would be more practical for them to be preparing the legal framework for his detention.
Just because they generally don't doesn't mean that they can't.


Exactly. Which is why we need to get to him first, and get him to safety first.

Viriel,

Borkstar Laboratories,

The Borkstar Initiative.

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#36 - 2015-03-11 14:05:21 UTC
Frenjo Borkstar wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
True. Except that his capsuleer status might have been quietly revoked.
If they're afraid that he's been ... well, somethinged, by the Sleepers or some other, unknown power, I can't imagine they'd want him to have access to capsuleer resources.
At a guess, they're probably not planning to kill him. That would be a waste; I agree with Dr. Borkstar that far. It would be more practical for them to be preparing the legal framework for his detention.
Just because they generally don't doesn't mean that they can't.


Exactly. Which is why we need to get to him first, and get him to safety first.


Nah, just shoot him and examine the corpse - Trust me, I have experience with weird brain strangeness.
Foley Aberas Jones
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#37 - 2015-03-11 14:16:10 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Frenjo Borkstar wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
True. Except that his capsuleer status might have been quietly revoked.
If they're afraid that he's been ... well, somethinged, by the Sleepers or some other, unknown power, I can't imagine they'd want him to have access to capsuleer resources.
At a guess, they're probably not planning to kill him. That would be a waste; I agree with Dr. Borkstar that far. It would be more practical for them to be preparing the legal framework for his detention.
Just because they generally don't doesn't mean that they can't.


Exactly. Which is why we need to get to him first, and get him to safety first.


Nah, just shoot him and examine the corpse - Trust me, I have experience with weird brain strangeness.


Can i do the shooting? I am good at that....
KaRa DaVuT
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2015-03-11 14:26:56 UTC
Frenjo Borkstar wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
You have to be a government to be able to grant citizenship, Borkstar.

You also have to be someone that cares about human rights to protect them.


We act as a government in Anoikis for a few systems.

I also care deeply about human rights, when the situation suits me, of course.


You ACT as a government?

MY eyes...

Holiness is in right action and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What God desires is in your heart and on your mind... And what you decide to do every day, makes you - not your race - a good man - or not.

Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#39 - 2015-03-11 16:09:28 UTC
Big bad Caldari being mean to Tukoss. Better try to save him, because those dirty CaldarI would never have a good reason for trying to keep him out of the State!

Katrina Oniseki

Tykari
The Observatory
#40 - 2015-03-11 17:53:43 UTC
Chances are that the State like many others, simply believed Tukoss to be dead, and now with some evidence to the contrary they are doing that which I'm sure they wanted to do ever since he defected. Probably the only reason it didn't happen was because it was a rather minor event given everything else that was happening in the State during that time.

Does it change anything? Not sure that it does. There is a chance he is still alive and a chance he might escape from whoever or whatever has been holding him captive. And if and when he does I'm sure we'll find out more, assuming he lives that long.

I do find it interesting that Eifyr & Co say they have heard nothing from him since his disappearance. About a year after his disappearance I reached out, in a futile bid to find out something, to the Minmatar Republic representative Abja Etbald. As expected she couldn't discuss it, although she did assure me he was well. When I pushed further she simply responded by saying that he wasn't missing and that was that.

So either they were lying, which doesn't strike me as unlikely although I don't really see why it would be necesarry to claim he was fine, or the Minmatar Republic, like many of the Empires, has been keeping secrets and know more about what is going on, what Tukoss was doing and possibly how he could have gotten captured in the first place.

In this dark void we are like brilliant stars, holding within us both the creative and destructive power to bring a new dawn upon worlds or plunge them into eternal darkness.

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