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Capitals and supers - give us something to do with them

Author
Panther X
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#1 - 2015-03-06 16:19:25 UTC
So with all the capital hate thats going on lately, be it from fighter/bomber scan res nerf, to no more assist, no skynet and warps, give us something to do with our shinies.

All you naysayers of capitals and no risk versus reward hear me out...

Let caps/supers use acceleration gates and dock. no, no hear me out.

1) Acceleration gates. What were the two main blocks for capitals to go into incursions? I mean other than no capitals in highsec. Cyno jammed systems and acceration gates into deadspace. Well cyno jams are meaningless now, we can just gate to gate into the incursion system. Second is acceleration gates.

If CCP allows capitals to use acceleration gates what will that do? It will allow us to do nullsec/lowsec incursions AND escalations. What does that mean for the naysayers? MOAR content. You want more opportunities to hunt ratting carriers? There you go. Carriers in the 3rd room of the Blood 10/10 taking huge amounts of damage from that tower and the mass of battleships will be hard pressed to escape when you come in with your hunting party. HUGE risk. Decent rewards from those 10/10's... Incursions present a different angle, that nullsec mom offers the biggest reward of all, the Revenant BPC. GARGANTUAN Reward GARGANTUAN risk.

Throw us a bone CCP, you want to take all the positives away from carriers? OK we can't stop you, but throw me a freakin bone!

2) Docking in station. This is going to gather probably 6000 "No, just plain no" statements. Well again, listen. If you allow capitals to dock, it will allow those space coffin dwellers a chance to get out of them for one thing and be able to pee vee pee in other stuff. But it will also make those station and sov conquer mechanics more valuable wont they? You still have freeport mode, and that gives an attacker an opportunity to bring in their own capital fleet with a place to put them for good fights. Honestly, I would just like an opportunity to let the damn thing rust and not worry about it for awhile. I mean come on, if you are taking away all usefulness of the stupid things let us drydock them and walk away.

Either give us something to do with them, or give us a way to walk away.

Let the flaming begin.

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#2 - 2015-03-06 16:31:03 UTC
You have a way to walk away. Two ways, actually.

The first is called "Eject". The second is called "Self-Destruct".

Allowing anything larger than a subcap into PvE content that has been balanced around subcaps would be hilarious at best and disastrous for the economy at worst.

Death to all Supers.
Iain Cariaba
#3 - 2015-03-06 16:48:46 UTC
Capitals using acceleration gates: Sure, let me solo a 10/10 in 10 minutes. This is a good idea. Incursions? Let's make them pretty much risk free due to the massive reps a pair of triage carriers can bring to the field. Moar isk!!!! Oh, and if you can't warp a capital out in the minutes it takes that hunting party to probe down your escalation, warp to it, and navigate through to the third room, then you deserve to lose it. Bringing capitals into sites is a bad idea, because it makes them safer to run, and safer for the capital pilot.

Docking Supers: What good fights during freeport period? You mean the fight where the super pilots realize they're camped in, and simply log out for a week, then one ot two at a time log in, undock with hangars full of stuff, and jump away before they can get locked down? Or do you mean the one where the evacuating coalition drops a thousand pilots into the system in advance, blue balling any real blockade of the station while the supers and jump freighters jump out with all the stuff?

Death to all Supers.
Viki Imsdal
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2015-03-06 16:58:30 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
You have a way to walk away. Two ways, actually.

The first is called "Eject". The second is called "Self-Destruct".

Allowing anything larger than a subcap into PvE content that has been balanced around subcaps would be hilarious at best and disastrous for the economy at worst.

Death to all Supers.


Think about how you would you react if one day CCP said to you, "as of now, 30 billion ISK worth of your assets (or everything you have if worth less) no longer has any use or purpose in Eve. Your character will be unable to do anything new until you trash it all."

Regardless of your opinion on super capitals or their role in Eve, the majority of players who own these ships put a lot of time and effort into training and buying/building them. To say they should simply destroy these assets if they want to countinue to play the game on that character is completely unreasonable and inconsiderate.

As for PVE content, I agree that allowing capitals and/or supers into environments that are currently forbidden to them would be incredibly unbalanced. Perhaps creating new content balanced for capital sized engagements would be an alternative option.
LT Alter
Optimistic Wasteland Inc.
Fraternity.
#5 - 2015-03-06 17:00:43 UTC
There are two ways for a super cap pilot to leave his coffin, put his super in an XL Ship Maintenance Array or eject from it in the safety of a POS bubble. Both of these I am ok with, however docking in a station. No. Why? Well it's not just about risk/reward. It's about balance and investment too. They shouldn't have a place to run to permanent safety and forcing you to lock in a pilot to own one is about investment into owning one. As spiderman's uncle once said, "With great power comes great chance of dying in a fire alone in space with your giant space phallus" At least, I think that's how it goes...

Running sites and incursions with supers/carriers is just way too unbalanced and there is a good reason why they can't do it already.


Also, supercapitals and capitals will remain massive force multipliers and the fact that they are no longer needed to sov grind is a great thing in my opinion and in now way reduces their usefulness as far as I am concerned. Wait for their balance changes bud, then we'll talk.
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#6 - 2015-03-06 17:28:40 UTC
ceptor with combat probes can one cycle hit a capital then warp to it. that's 6 seconds after jumping into a system before warping to the site the cap is in. 3rd room that's only an extra 30 seconds for a ceptor
align time on a carrier is? around 45 seconds. if he went for a quick **** while his drones do the work, then even better.

it puts carriers out in the open. thought you guys wanted that?
Joan Miles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2015-03-06 17:29:30 UTC
Off topic:
This topic is going to get some pretty interesting replies.. judging from the title alone.
I got my money on the "death to all supers" thingy.

On topic:
Supers are and will remain force projection multipliers and I have to agree with previous posts stating they should be so. I would hate to see roaming supercap/cap fleets 'jumping around'. Was training for them a time waste? Not really, although their use is taking a different path atm. The fact that a player trained for a specific skill for x days does not secure its future uses and should not be reimbursed unless it becomes obsolete. Else each change of the meta would become a whinefest.

However aside from personal views, I would wait to see what Fanfest and future brings to SOV.
LT Alter
Optimistic Wasteland Inc.
Fraternity.
#8 - 2015-03-06 17:35:19 UTC  |  Edited by: LT Alter
Ncc 1709 wrote:
ceptor with combat probes can one cycle hit a capital then warp to it. that's 6 seconds after jumping into a system before warping to the site the cap is in. 3rd room that's only an extra 30 seconds for a ceptor
align time on a carrier is? around 45 seconds. if he went for a quick **** while his drones do the work, then even better.

it puts carriers out in the open. thought you guys wanted that?


A carrier set up for fast ratting would be fit for fast warp (If they're smart) and could warp in a single MWD cycle (10 seconds). Carrier not fit for fast warp can warp in about 30 seconds with decent nav skills.

Also he can run the site while aligned out very easily.

Not to mention a ceptor can't tackle a super carrier.

It doesn't put them out in the open any more than they are, and it would be safer to use a carrier to do those site rather than any other ship.

Also, a can also jump away if he needs to before you even get there. They can also fit enough warp stabs that your ceptor can't hold it (If they use a mobile depot or buddy carrier).
Panther X
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#9 - 2015-03-06 17:50:56 UTC
LT Alter wrote:


Running sites and incursions with supers/carriers is just way too unbalanced and there is a good reason why they can't do it already.



I did put on my flame retardant underwear before posting this.

Well, the Urobouros site does require at minimum what 40, 60 pilots to do at minimum influence? You can't tell me that is risk free, especially in nullsec. When was the last time you did an incursion? They are if anything risk free, especially in null sec. There's a reason that the big incursion groups offer an SRP. You still have to grind the influence down just to get the Mom to spawn from what I remember, and until you do, you are suffering from resistance, repping and damage penalties.

The null sec incursions are pretty much unvisited because of the massive amount of grinding influence, with the only reward being concord payout if in fact you pop the mom.

Why would you (not necessarily you, but other posters) care if someone is making isk with their shiny? I do non acceleration gate escalations and sanctums/havens/forsaken hubs in my super. What's the big issue people have with more content or people making money? PVE in a carrier or super is putting my ship at risk. Look at the kadeshi killboard anytime and see that. But we aren't skerred to go out in shiny stuff and do it.

I thought people wanted more risk for their rewards. If want to go do pve with my shiny, and you want to pop me? Come get me. I'll make you work for it.

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...

Panther X
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#10 - 2015-03-06 18:01:28 UTC
LT Alter wrote:


A carrier set up for fast ratting would be fit for fast warp (If they're smart) and could warp in a single MWD cycle (10 seconds). Carrier not fit for fast warp can warp in about 30 seconds with decent nav skills.

Also he can run the site while aligned out very easily.

Not to mention a ceptor can't tackle a super carrier.

It doesn't put them out in the open any more than they are, and it would be safer to use a carrier to do those site rather than any other ship.

Also, a can also jump away if he needs to before you even get there. They can also fit enough warp stabs that your ceptor can't hold it (If they use a mobile depot or buddy carrier).


Let's address that issue directly;

How many low slots does a thanny have? Six. Ok lets fit one for ratting; Damage Control? Check, Race specific hardener? Check. Capital repper? Check. DDA? I'll take 2. Plus an i-stab...that leaves me with....oh wait. I can't fit a warp core stab now. So my fast warp? Not so fast. Wait I'm switching targets...where did that ceptor come...oh im warp scrambled. Oh great ok, mobile depot, mobile depot, ok lets put those warp stabs...oh crap here's his buddies.

On paper yes that sounds great, but not so great in practice.

A ceptor can't tackle a super but a hictor can. You don't hunt carriers or supers with one ship, you hunt them in gangs. If you are looking for small pvp leave the carrier alone, find an easier target.

Your argument doesn't address what is happening now with carriers and supers in anomolies, so why bother? Carriers and supers get tackled all the time in anoms.

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...

LT Alter
Optimistic Wasteland Inc.
Fraternity.
#11 - 2015-03-06 18:42:52 UTC  |  Edited by: LT Alter
Panther X wrote:


I did put on my flame retardant underwear before posting this.

Well, the Urobouros site does require at minimum what 40, 60 pilots to do at minimum influence? You can't tell me that is risk free, especially in nullsec. When was the last time you did an incursion? They are if anything risk free, especially in null sec. There's a reason that the big incursion groups offer an SRP. You still have to grind the influence down just to get the Mom to spawn from what I remember, and until you do, you are suffering from resistance, repping and damage penalties.

...

I thought people wanted more risk for their rewards. If want to go do pve with my shiny, and you want to pop me? Come get me. I'll make you work for it.



I never said incursions were unbalanced, I said doing them with carriers would be. Using a fleet of carriers to run them would be exponentially faster and safer. With carrier reps on field they aren't going to die. Not to mention cyno jammer constellation wide.

Panther X wrote:


Let's address that issue directly;

How many low slots does a thanny have? Six. Ok lets fit one for ratting; Damage Control? Check, Race specific hardener? Check. Capital repper? Check. DDA? I'll take 2. Plus an i-stab...that leaves me with....oh wait. I can't fit a warp core stab now. So my fast warp? Not so fast. Wait I'm switching targets...where did that ceptor come...oh im warp scrambled. Oh great ok, mobile depot, mobile depot, ok lets put those warp stabs...oh crap here's his buddies.

On paper yes that sounds great, but not so great in practice.

A ceptor can't tackle a super but a hictor can. You don't hunt carriers or supers with one ship, you hunt them in gangs. If you are looking for small pvp leave the carrier alone, find an easier target.

Your argument doesn't address what is happening now with carriers and supers in anomolies, so why bother? Carriers and supers get tackled all the time in anoms.


I did say mobile depot did I not? *Checks own post* Yup, I did. Now let's address your bigotry directly. Let's fit for rating (The way that a smart person would, if he could do it with a carrier)


  1. Damage Control? Don't need it.
  2. Race specific hardener? Don't need that either.
  3. Capital Repper? Barely need that but throw it on just in case.
  4. DDA? Yea sure we can take 2 of those.
  5. Inertia Stabilizers for quick warp? Take 2 of those (Can now warp in 1 MWD cycle)
  6. Hyperspacial Accelertor? Oh we still have space for that wow.
  7. Mobile depot I can rep with a capital remote repair and 6 warp stabs in the cargo hold? Check
  8. Directional Scanner and Emergency Cyno Alt? Depends how smart you are I guess.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#12 - 2015-03-06 18:45:49 UTC
Allow supercaps to crash into outposts to destroy them, killing two birds with one stone.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Master Sergeant MacRobert
Space-Brewery-Association
Local Is Primary
#13 - 2015-03-06 18:53:24 UTC
I've no objection to the addition if Cap/Super PvE content.

Why not have null sec 10/10 escalate to 20/10 cap fights with a super accepting accel gates that requires a pass key for supers (no two or more supers at once spider tanking). One room with lots of LCOTwisted. Good AI that thinks about targets and packs a punch befitting of the spawn ship type.


They should take a look at NPC faction and officer (commander) spawns and mix it up with 1 assault Frig, 1 HAC, 1 Bs & 1 cap spawn for the meta's 11-14. Change the loot drops for the same metas to be hull size specific ie:- Meta 11 frig mods, meta 12 cruiser/BC size etc.

I don't mean this to lower the tanki-ness of the officer spawns but they could do with variety (rather than just tier 1-4 value). There is soo much that could be done with these metas.


2.
Allow Supers to dock. No but perhaps yes.

Allow them to dock to a station docking ring yes. Player owned stations only. Docking ring fitted allows 1 super then plus one per level of upgrade. Then work out a system to allow docking rings to be attacked (perhaps this is your new structure grind) that either disables the ring and the super from undock or perhaps even damages the docked super.



There remains a lot to see from what I would expect to be a serious balance pass at the top end ships. Let us hope CCP intend to do something.

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"

LT Alter
Optimistic Wasteland Inc.
Fraternity.
#14 - 2015-03-06 18:55:55 UTC
I'm very thankful that CCP does not take advice from threads such as these. I hope that one day some of you might understand the difference between content and balance and also the difference between things you want and things that are good for the game.
Elenahina
No.Mercy
Triumvirate.
#15 - 2015-03-06 19:22:10 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Allow supercaps to crash into outposts to destroy them, killing two birds with one stone.


If that happens, I might actually finally have a reason to buy one.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno

Hairpins Blueprint
The Northerners
Northern Coalition.
#16 - 2015-03-06 19:37:20 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
You have a way to walk away. Two ways, actually.

The first is called "Eject". The second is called "Self-Destruct".

Allowing anything larger than a subcap into PvE content that has been balanced around subcaps would be hilarious at best and disastrous for the economy at worst.

Death to all Supers.


OFC, coz skills to pilot, build; time wasted on onerous work to craft the damn thing .... but it's op so let's just make it a ussles asset.


Scan ress nerf to fighters make supers bad at ratting, and titans were nerfed long time ago : (

Content is only taken from cap pilots while nothing is added to fill the gap.

At lest le people to dock the damn thing so they can forget about them; insted of forcing people to keep theire toons in space coffins.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2015-03-06 20:35:09 UTC
Let them dock and drop the EWAR immunity. At least its a start.
Lienzo
Amanuensis
#18 - 2015-03-06 21:11:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Lienzo
Sov needs content for all sized groups. If anything, entosis modules should be restricted to SBUs. They should prep the field for bigger task forces to enter the fray.

Entosis modules should also be useful for making timers dynamic. Consistent harassment of combat anoms should be able to push timers forward, while defensive actions should delay timers. Obviously, there'd be a little meta there, but nothing players can't manage. This gives every FC something to do between timers, and reduces or eliminates waiting games in pitched wars.

The constellation wide combat anomaly mechanics are pretty good though. Anything that splits up fleets is welcome.

The biggest problem of sov games since dominion is that all walls have been designed to be tall. It completely excluded small groups from doing anything besides pipe control. The key to diversifying risk is that you have to make the big walls be dependent upon the existence of more numerous smaller walls.

For example, to have a sov V system, every system in proximity to it should have to have sov IV, minimum. Likewise, you have to have an additional perimeter for each successive sov level for each system, with a sov III system being surrounded by sov II or higher systems. It's completely reasonable that capitol systems have incrementally higher walls, provided there must be a periphery, and it in turn must be vulnerable.

Sov 0 and sov I systems should be vulnerable to individuals with hacking ability (entosis modules). Progressively less small gangs should be able to destabilize systems up to sov III, while capital fleets should be able to destabilize systems up to sov IV. The fate of infrastructure in Sov V systems should depend upon the fate of the border.

The abilities of stations can and should be scaled back if they are subcap oriented content. To that end, all capital ships should be tied to POS economically, strategically and logistically. They should have to have POS for hull repairs, for getting many of the building materials, for processing and storing their fuel and for constructing all of their components.
LT Alter
Optimistic Wasteland Inc.
Fraternity.
#19 - 2015-03-06 21:18:31 UTC
Lienzo wrote:
Sov needs content for all sized groups. If anything, entosis modules should be restricted to SBUs. They should prep the field for bigger task forces to enter the fray....


Did you even read the thread's title? We're talking about capitals and supercapitals, not sov mechanics. Seriously do you people even understand what it means to stay on topic?
Panther X
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#20 - 2015-03-06 21:20:20 UTC
LT Alter wrote:

I never said incursions were unbalanced, I said doing them with carriers would be. Using a fleet of carriers to run them would be exponentially faster and safer. With carrier reps on field they aren't going to die. Not to mention cyno jammer constellation wide.

I did say mobile depot did I not? *Checks own post* Yup, I did. Now let's address your bigotry directly. Let's fit for rating (The way that a smart person would, if he could do it with a carrier)


  1. Damage Control? Don't need it.
  2. Race specific hardener? Don't need that either.
  3. Capital Repper? Barely need that but throw it on just in case.
  4. DDA? Yea sure we can take 2 of those.
  5. Inertia Stabilizers for quick warp? Take 2 of those (Can now warp in 1 MWD cycle)
  6. Hyperspacial Accelertor? Oh we still have space for that wow.
  7. Mobile depot I can rep with a capital remote repair and 6 warp stabs in the cargo hold? Check
  8. Directional Scanner and Emergency Cyno Alt? Depends how smart you are I guess.



Do you have problems breathing when it rains? With your nose turned up in the air so far it must be difficult. Lol



Bigotry is a state of mind where a person obstinately, irrationally, unfairly or intolerantly dislikes other people, ideas, etc; sorry but I'm not the one hatin' all over your post.



And no matter how many WCS you have fitted, it won't help you from a dictor/hictor. But I do understand your points, and I'll give you the nod on the depot; but remember you still have align time if you are sitting on top of it. That 10 second align is still more than it will take for them to get a drop on you.

The fact remains that carrier/super ratting isnt 100% safe. I am trying to give more content for people to get big kills. You want risk versus reward? Great. Give me something to risk my carriers/super for.

I can do a Sanctum in 8 minutes (Nyx can do in about 7) in my Aeon; turning into +/-60m per tick. That's a decent income, but escalations are more. I have done the stage 3 Angel 10/10 in less than 3 minutes with the super.

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...

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