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The answer to the ultimate question of Life, the Universe, and Cloaking.
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Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#241 - 2011-12-22 16:24:05 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
And by "adds a little danger" you mean "makes it much more of a grind to keep a system even half as safe", then sure, it "adds a little danger". It's a one-sided buff to cloaked gangs, and you know it.


You're talking about null sec, correct? You don't see the problem with that statement?

Besides, the buff is for all cloaked vessels (as well as the nerf, losing access to local and the cyno delay) equally... both the cloaked gangs you fear and those that lay traps for the cloaked gangs you fear.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#242 - 2011-12-22 16:37:53 UTC
Yes, I'm talking about nullsec. I know you want nullsec to become more like wormhole space, but it's not going to happen.

Losing access to local and the cyno delay isn't something I'd call huge nerfs, especially not when compared to the buff of not appearing in local in the first place.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#243 - 2011-12-22 16:54:59 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Yes, I'm talking about nullsec. I know you want nullsec to become more like wormhole space, but it's not going to happen.

Losing access to local and the cyno delay isn't something I'd call huge nerfs, especially not when compared to the buff of not appearing in local in the first place.



The notion that is is not a huge buff to cloaked ships is a joke. They can just have one person in their fleet uncloak for a second and get the local information. Even if the op made it so you can't get local if you have a cloak fit, you would only need one person without a cloak to give the whole gang the local intel. The idea that this is somehow a balanced change is just silly.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Onyx47
U-208
#244 - 2011-12-22 18:58:11 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Even if the op made it so you can't get local if you have a cloak fit, you would only need one person without a cloak to give the whole gang the local intel. The idea that this is somehow a balanced change is just silly.


Funny. That's how I've been doing it all these years. I believe that one uncloaked person is called a "scout" in "elite pvp" circles.

Please enlighten me to your superior intel gathering tactics so I may become an elite PvPer myself and join you in your awesomeness.

In PvP there are no winners, only losers. The trick is to be less of a loser than the guy you're shooting at.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#245 - 2011-12-22 19:04:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Onyx47 wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Even if the op made it so you can't get local if you have a cloak fit, you would only need one person without a cloak to give the whole gang the local intel. The idea that this is somehow a balanced change is just silly.


Funny. That's how I've been doing it all these years. I believe that one uncloaked person is called a "scout" in "elite pvp" circles.

...


What are you talking about?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Onyx47
U-208
#246 - 2011-12-22 19:30:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Onyx47
Cearain wrote:


What are you talking about?


You were complaining about needing only one decloaked person in target system to give entire gang intel since he can see local. As in, he jumps in/decloaks, looks at local and says on voice comms something like: "Local 16, 6 neuts, 10 red, gate clear, Badger and Drake on scan, possibly at a tower."

I always did it that way. But you know what usually happened? My name popped up in their intel channel and everybody either packed up their bags and hauled ass to the station, just in case I have backup in the next system, or they scrambled to get eyes on me and see what I do.

Since you are confused by this and also claim to be elite PvPer I am confident my methods are wrong and wish to better myself. Please, oh great master, reveal your secrets to poor old me.

Now, on from trolling the troll: I would propose some delays in addition to cyno delay:

1) Cloaker remains in local for a short period of time after cloaking. This enables you to see him in local even if he spams cloak as soon as he moves. 20 secs sounds reasonable since that's the session timer duration, combined with gate cloak which should not remove you from local and considering loading the system takes some time that would amount to a minimum of 25ish seconds the cloaker is visible in local.

2) Local reconnection delay for the cloaker after decloaking. Meaning, if you decloak your computer needs 30 seconds to recalibrate and reconnect to local channel. This timer is equal to current recloaking delay. Gates are however not affected by this and you show up in local right away. This means just pulsing your cloak to see local chat takes, at minimum, 30 seconds for you with addition of being visible in local for a minimum of 50 seconds. Of course, you need to stay decloaked longer to actually SEE what's in local.

P.S. - I'm fine with status quo myself even though I live in 0.0, but these changes seem interesting and would be fun to play around with if released.

In PvP there are no winners, only losers. The trick is to be less of a loser than the guy you're shooting at.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#247 - 2011-12-22 19:36:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Or they just ignore local in its entirety, look at how many are docked and in space through the eve map, and just jump around from belt to belt or anom to anom.

As for the 20 seconds, you jump in, cloak up, safe up and wait a few hours until the carebears relax their guard. Then you go hunting.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#248 - 2011-12-22 19:39:47 UTC
Onyx47 wrote:


1) Cloaker remains in local for a short period of time after cloaking. This enables you to see him in local even if he spams cloak as soon as he moves. 20 secs sounds reasonable since that's the session timer duration, combined with gate cloak which should not remove you from local and considering loading the system takes some time that would amount to a minimum of 25ish seconds the cloaker is visible in local.

2) Local reconnection delay for the cloaker after decloaking. Meaning, if you decloak your computer needs 30 seconds to recalibrate and reconnect to local channel. This timer is equal to current recloaking delay. Gates are however not affected by this and you show up in local right away. This means just pulsing your cloak to see local chat takes, at minimum, 30 seconds for you with addition of being visible in local for a minimum of 50 seconds. Of course, you need to stay decloaked longer to actually SEE what's in local.

P.S. - I'm fine with status quo myself even though I live in 0.0, but these changes seem interesting and would be fun to play around with if released.


Huh... these are good. If you don't mind, I'm going to include these to the OP.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Onyx47
U-208
#249 - 2011-12-22 19:48:39 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Or they just ignore local in its entirety, look at how many are docked and in space through the eve map, and just jump around from belt to belt or anom to anom.


If they ignore it, then they don't need local at all. Glad you agree, though I don't want to propose removing local.

Lord Zim wrote:
As for the 20 seconds, you jump in, cloak up, safe up and wait a few hours until the carebears relax their guard. Then you go hunting.


Glad you agree with me that this would be an interesting mechanics to play around with Smile

@Ingvar - go right ahead, glad you like it :)

In PvP there are no winners, only losers. The trick is to be less of a loser than the guy you're shooting at.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#250 - 2011-12-22 19:54:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Onyx47 wrote:
Cearain wrote:

What are you talking about?

You were complaining about needing only one decloaked person in target system to give entire gang intel since he can see local. As in, he jumps in/decloaks, looks at local and says on voice comms something like: "Local 16, 6 neuts, 10 red, gate clear, Badger and Drake on scan, possibly at a tower."
I always did it that way. But you know what usually happened? My name popped up in their intel channel and everybody either packed up their bags and hauled ass to the station, just in case I have backup in the next system, or they scrambled to get eyes on me and see what I do.
Since you are confused by this and also claim to be elite PvPer I am confident my methods are wrong and wish to better myself. Please, oh great master, reveal your secrets to poor old me.
Now, on from trolling the troll: I would propose some delays in addition to cyno delay:
1) Cloaker remains in local for a short period of time after cloaking. This enables you to see him in local even if he spams cloak as soon as he moves. 20 secs sounds reasonable since that's the session timer duration, combined with gate cloak which should not remove you from local and considering loading the system takes some time that would amount to a minimum of 25ish seconds the cloaker is visible in local.
2) Local reconnection delay for the cloaker after decloaking. Meaning, if you decloak your computer needs 30 seconds to recalibrate and reconnect to local channel. This timer is equal to current recloaking delay. Gates are however not affected by this and you show up in local right away. This means just pulsing your cloak to see local chat takes, at minimum, 30 seconds for you with addition of being visible in local for a minimum of 50 seconds. Of course, you need to stay decloaked longer to actually SEE what's in local.
P.S. - I'm fine with status quo myself even though I live in 0.0, but these changes seem interesting and would be fun to play around with if released.


First I never said I was some great elite pvper. I'm horrible at it but I have fun nonetheless. The only point I was making was that I have at least *done* some solo and small gang pvp. People who have not done any solo or small gang pvp and therefore don't understand how its’ done shouldn't be telling everyone else what changes would promote it. Can you not at least agree on that?


As to the topic we are discussing: the op is claiming this is not just a buff to cloaks but it is actually neither buffs or nerfs them. He claims that because you can not see local while your cloak is active and the delay you have in firing a cyno after uncloaking counterbalances the huge buff to cloaking that this proposal brings.

Lord Zim and I are basically pointing out that these supposed downsides do not even come close to balancing out the buff to cloaking this would bring.

You arppearantly agree since you are suggesting some other negative effects. But those negative effects are still paltry to the huge buff this would bring to cloaked blobs.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#251 - 2011-12-22 19:56:43 UTC
Onyx47 wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Or they just ignore local in its entirety, look at how many are docked and in space through the eve map, and just jump around from belt to belt or anom to anom.


If they ignore it, then they don't need local at all. Glad you agree, though I don't want to propose removing local.

Lord Zim wrote:
As for the 20 seconds, you jump in, cloak up, safe up and wait a few hours until the carebears relax their guard. Then you go hunting.


Glad you agree with me that this would be an interesting mechanics to play around with Smile

@Ingvar - go right ahead, glad you like it :)

That wasn't me agreeing, that was me saying what'll happen.

Just to expand on the "safe up a few hours, then go hunting", after this has happened a few times they'll realize that the effort required to keep a system safe is more than the rewards you can get, especially compared to L4s and incursions, and they'll just back to hisec.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Onyx47
U-208
#252 - 2011-12-22 20:19:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Onyx47
Forum being stupid, ignore

In PvP there are no winners, only losers. The trick is to be less of a loser than the guy you're shooting at.
Onyx47
U-208
#253 - 2011-12-22 20:19:55 UTC
Cearain wrote:
First I never said I was some great elite pvper. I'm horrible at it but I have fun nonetheless. The only point I was making was that I have at least *done* some solo and small gang pvp. People who have not done any solo or small gang pvp and therefore don't understand how its’ done shouldn't be telling everyone else what changes would promote it. Can you not at least agree on that?


Ok, I'm done with trolling.

Yes, we're in agreement, I would never poke in a topic that I don't know **** about.

I do small gang PvP. Hell, I LOVE it. I don't get a lot of solo opportunities sadly, but not for a lack of trying. Circumstances pushed me into areas that don't favor soloing, not to mention my choice of Caldari boats which in general don't lend themselves well to such a playstyle (don't say Drake, I tried, people ran thinking I'm bait Sad). I hope to get into solo more soon as I wrap up some stuff I gotta do and I can fly Minmatar well now.

The thing is: WHs are small gang PvP as well. Exceptions where a huge fight occurs are relatively rare. So OP, even though he might not have lived in 0.0 and lowsec should have at least some grasp on it. I don't think he's completely oblivious and I can as such respect his oppinion. You and Lord Zim seemed a bit focused on calling him out on the fact he's a WH dweller and it ticked me off a bit since I have lived in a hole for a while myself and have respect for WH inhabitants since it's a giant PITA at times. Sorry if I pushed the trolling too far.

Cearain wrote:
As to the topic we are discussing: the op is claiming this is not just a buff to cloaks but it is actually neither buffs or nerfs them. He claims that because you can not see local while your cloak is active and the delay you have in firing a cyno after uncloaking counterbalances the huge buff to cloaking that this proposal brings.

Lord Zim and I are basically point out that these supposed downsides do not even come close to balancing out the buff to cloaking this would bring. You arppearantly agree since you are suggesting some other negative effects. But those negative effects are still paltry to the huge buff this would bring to cloaked blobs.


I admit there are holes. I'm just not worried by the concept of cloaky blobs as much as you are. It gimps your fits due to CPU requirements and wrecks your scan res. Also, cloaked BS still takes freaking ages to warp after decloaking since cloacks gimp your speed while you're using them. Also, those gangs would have to be damned patient to achieve their goals. As a person who was part of blob warfare before (and hated it) I can tell you - the bigger the group, the more impatient it gets. Would they still happen? Yeah, I guess, some people wouldn't mind waiting, either active or afk. But I don't think they would be a common sight after a while, they would be FOTM and slowly die out eventually.

On the other hand, I see a great opportunity for small covops gangs having more use, giving Black Ops it's rightful place as a feared and highly specialized ship.

As for nullsec carebears - no sympathy, it's 0.0. Want those 1.5mil rats? Fight for them. Expirienced PvPers who conquered that space should know how to behave. Renters should learn to cope, they got there with basically 0 effort anyway. Maybe I just have bitter vet syndrome but my answer to any whiny carebear that wants to live in lowsec or 0.0 but says it's not fair is: HTFU or GTFO

In PvP there are no winners, only losers. The trick is to be less of a loser than the guy you're shooting at.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#254 - 2011-12-22 20:50:46 UTC
Onyx47 wrote:
I admit there are holes. I'm just not worried by the concept of cloaky blobs as much as you are. It gimps your fits due to CPU requirements and wrecks your scan res. Also, cloaked BS still takes freaking ages to warp after decloaking since cloacks gimp your speed while you're using them.


As far as fitting a cloak on a ship it is not really productive to argue about whether 30-60 cpu are allot of cpu or a little. I don't think they are hard to fit. As far as whether it "wrecks" your scan res again I disagree. But neither of these things make much of a difference when you substantially outnumber your opponent. And that is what will happen if they mak this change. There will be many many more lopsided fights.

Plus the bs wouldn't need to warp. They could be right there on grid with the bait ship(s).


Onyx47 wrote:
Also, those gangs would have to be damned patient to achieve their goals. As a person who was part of blob warfare before (and hated it) I can tell you - the bigger the group, the more impatient it gets. Would they still happen? Yeah, I guess, some people wouldn't mind waiting, either active or afk. But I don't think they would be a common sight after a while, they would be FOTM and slowly die out eventually.


We may be understanding the word "blob" differently. And I will admit I am probably using the term in the less accepted way. For me a blob doesn't need to be 50 or more ships. Hell if I attack a rifter in my rifter and then a hurricane suddenly uncloaks and kills me - for all intents and purposes I was blobbed. I guess it would be more accurate for me to just say this will just lead to fights in eve being much more lopsided than they are already. Would you agree with that?


Onyx47 wrote:

On the other hand, I see a great opportunity for small covops gangs having more use, giving Black Ops it's rightful place as a feared and highly specialized ship.

As for nullsec carebears - no sympathy, it's 0.0. Want those 1.5mil rats? Fight for them. Expirienced PvPers who conquered that space should know how to behave. Renters should learn to cope, they got there with basically 0 effort anyway. Maybe I just have bitter vet syndrome but my answer to any whiny carebear that wants to live in lowsec or 0.0 but says it's not fair is: HTFU or GTFO


Well I suspect they will gtfo. I mean with high sec incursions pay so much why the hell would they stay? I will sort of follow my own rule of not talking allot about what I don't know about. But it seems to me that getting sov is not something that takes 0 effort.

But anyway my concern is not really for the carebears. I can say this would be a *major* setback to my pvp playstyle. I rely on local to avoid blobs (and find wartargets!!) all the time.

BTW I do not have anything against wormhole dwellers. I do however stand by my comments about pvp in wormholes as I think the statistics and anecdotal evidence that I have seen does nothing but support my theory that local promotes pvp with good fights where as nerfing local will tend to create more lopsided pvp which in turn leads to less pvp.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Onyx47
U-208
#255 - 2011-12-22 21:24:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Onyx47
Forum software should go die in a fire. Seriously.

I had a longer post but both forum and my clipboard betrayed me so I'll shorten it:

0 effort was referring to renters, not sov holders.

I can understand your concerns, I just don't think it will have as big of an effect as you fear. I guess we won't change eachothers opinions on that but I'm glad we both voiced our sides of the argument. After all, it's CCP that implements stuff, not us.

I also had an explanation about why BSs sitting on grid would be a bad idea anyway and would quickly be countered but forum ate it and I'm lazy.

Also, there IS a scan res gimp on cloaks (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Improved_Cloaking_Device_II), covert cloak doesn't have it but it's use is fairly limited and requires gangs which are, imho, cost ineffective.

In PvP there are no winners, only losers. The trick is to be less of a loser than the guy you're shooting at.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#256 - 2011-12-22 21:35:24 UTC
Onyx47 wrote:
The thing is: WHs are small gang PvP as well. Exceptions where a huge fight occurs are relatively rare. So OP, even though he might not have lived in 0.0 and lowsec should have at least some grasp on it. I don't think he's completely oblivious and I can as such respect his oppinion. You and Lord Zim seemed a bit focused on calling him out on the fact he's a WH dweller and it ticked me off a bit since I have lived in a hole for a while myself and have respect for WH inhabitants since it's a giant PITA at times. Sorry if I pushed the trolling too far.

I haven't called him out on being a WH dweller, he's the one focusing wholly on wormholes. The only thing I've done regarding wormholes and him, has been to try to combine another suggestion with his nullsec-breaking suggestion to make it into something which gave carebears a fighting chance of getting the **** out when being actively hunted, and modify it a bit when he whined about how it broke his precious wormholes.

Which, of course, still wasn't enough.
Onyx47 wrote:
Maybe I just have bitter vet syndrome but my answer to any whiny carebear that wants to live in lowsec or 0.0 but says it's not fair is: HTFU or GTFO

My argument in all of this has been that carebears will GTFO, which means even fewer potential targets. We've seen what happened when just rewards were cut back harsly, you can imagine what'll happen when risks and/or effort are increased harshly as well. I mean, just look at how much whining afk cloaking generates, then add actual risk and effort to that.

Personally I'd find it hilarious to see just how true my predictions come if any of these "remove local" ideas do come to fruition, just so I could point back to all these threads and go "see, bitches? I told you." when they start whining about how few targets they suddenly have because everyone who used to be shootable, has left.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#257 - 2011-12-22 21:38:27 UTC
Onyx47 wrote:
...Also, there IS a scan res gimp on cloaks (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Improved_Cloaking_Device_II), covert cloak doesn't have it but it's use is fairly limited and requires gangs which are, imho, cost ineffective.



I know there is a negative effect but I don't think it "wrecks" your scan resolution. It would have an effect on your ability to tackle something but that is not an issue in this scenario. Bait ship calls a point then you uncloak and open up.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Onyx47
U-208
#258 - 2011-12-22 21:52:11 UTC
See, now I'm happy. This thread seemed to me like a giant ball of rage when I started posting in it (either that or I just needed to vent my inner troll a bit). Now there's a nice discussion rolling.

At this moment I have nothing to add, we'll see if anything comes out of this without repeating myself. Zim, I respectfully accept your invite to a flamewar if any changes are implemented. At least we can fight on forums since I don't see goons in space much these days P

I'm outta this thread, fly safe or unsafe, however you choose.

In PvP there are no winners, only losers. The trick is to be less of a loser than the guy you're shooting at.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#259 - 2011-12-22 21:58:26 UTC
No flamewar, just links to some posts detailing what'll happen with "What did I say would happen? What happened? Yeah, who's money now, bitches."

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#260 - 2011-12-22 22:18:13 UTC
There would be a large increase in ships blown up at first.

But then as people realized the fights were even more lopsided (read no longer much fun) than they are now the pvp would drop off. Certainly the amount of solo pvp would all but disapear - that is unless its someone ganking a non-pvp ship.

I can't imgine I would stick with the game if ccp did something this dumb. I don't think they will take the mechanics from the least popular parts of the game and force them on everyone else though.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815