These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1321 - 2015-03-06 16:51:18 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
Quote:

That argument suggesting full removal or full delay is a straw man, something easy to argue against because it sounds unreasonable to many.


You're right. So stop using it as validation for your arguments.

You must be confused, as I have never used full removal or full delay as a recommended solution.

While you specifically stated this:
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:

.... You can not use this as a valid argument for your side when you know that removing local would create a HUGE imbalance in the game overall and it would destroy null.


You are the only one seriously suggesting that removing local was advocated for.

Most serious suggestions I am seeing here advocate for adjustment to local, as a part of a larger set of changes.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#1322 - 2015-03-06 17:02:07 UTC
Nikk wrote:

Reasons why local chat is involved:.....

3. Without local, no AFK cloaking takes place, as how will the victims know to be afraid if local doesn't tell them?


The above statements are yours. What I am saying is not that you are advocating removal. What I am saying is that you can not use statements like what is above as valid points for your stance, when you know the point itself is flawed. Unless of course you were simply being sarcastic in the statement.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1323 - 2015-03-06 17:03:11 UTC
Terraniel Aurelius wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Area denial is the unintended outcome, which was promoted by two sides:

The real problem in null is unresolved stalemates, coming from these existing conditions.


1. And THAT is what everyone else here is saying, You're just adding in a whole bunch of nonsense about non-consensual pvp and vapid notions of how null and cloaky camping works.

Currently xxPizzaxx has deployed to npc delve. They have roughly a dozen cloaky camping alts with covops cynos sitting in any system of notable activity. Those alts are not manned 24/7, but they are online, in space 23.5/7. In their staging system, the attacking force is online, in space, cloaked up. They have scouts 1 jump out in every direction. This is an operation of roughly 50 toons.
2. These guys are able to strike targets because there is no viable method to counter their hotdrops. Everyone knows what a trap looks like, and it's just a waiting game to see who gets bored and logs off first. The problem is that the cloaky campers don't have to log off, they can just get up from the computer and leave their toons logged in, an no one is the wiser.

...


1
If you don't understand the concept, ridiculing it seems rather shallow.

Let's simplify it, for more general understanding. CONSENSUAL means you are present and participating purely by choice.
You did not screw up and get ganked, to be here, and you were not trapped by other circumstances either.

2
Then limiting the ability to hot drop would seem a better solution for gameplay.
The spool-up idea I described covers that.
My solution keeps standard cyno usage intact, for other intents and purposes.

The rest of your argument seems based on the point: Because 'Hot-Dropping'....

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1324 - 2015-03-06 17:09:52 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
Nikk wrote:

Reasons why local chat is involved:.....

3. Without local, no AFK cloaking takes place, as how will the victims know to be afraid if local doesn't tell them?


The above statements are yours. What I am saying is not that you are advocating removal. What I am saying is that you can not use statements like what is above as valid points for your stance, when you know the point itself is flawed. Unless of course you were simply being sarcastic in the statement.


It is a far more reasoned suggestion that cloaked vessels be denied their mechanism of threat, when that threat creates gameplay stagnation such as described in this thread.

That can be achieved by:

1: Limiting Hot-Drop ability, in connection to balancing PvE craft to be level with cloaked craft in a fight.

2: Removing or partially delaying listing of cloaked craft in local, while leaving the rest of local intact, in connection to a means to detect and hunt cloaked craft.

Method 1 kills the implied threat potential, while method 2 allows proactive and reactive efforts to remove the threat itself.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#1325 - 2015-03-06 18:33:20 UTC
......

ok

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1326 - 2015-03-06 21:54:06 UTC
Well it does seem that people are somewhat concerned regarding AFK cloaking.
Naturally people being stressed as a result of this, is unfortunate, and does encourage spending unproductive time in the stations and pos.
And that is of course a frustration for many.

A suggestion was made, by a respected individual, who shall remain nameless for opsec reasons, that was like a light bulb moment.

If one could not see a cloaky camper, and a covert ops cloak in addition to hiding the ship from overview, visually, and dscan, hid the pilot from local too, then everyone should be much more relaxed, just like wormhole space is not concerned with cloaky campers, everyone could enjoy the same benefits.

After all, if you do not know it is there, it cannot restrict your behaviour!

I recommend this to you all.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#1327 - 2015-03-06 22:20:50 UTC
Quote:

After all, if you do not know it is there, it cannot restrict your behaviour!


You do understand how false this is though, right? WH residents dont cruise around in blissful ignorance that a cloak might be in system. They are constantly prepapred for it. The difference is that in WH space you cant hot drop on people. The only way to bring in help is if its already there or sitting close to the WH entrance.

Removing a cloaked ship from local does nothing more than just boost the power of that ship and it's been said already that people would become more unwilling to undock due to the constant fear of losing a high end asset with no warning at all.

This has all already been said

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1328 - 2015-03-06 23:02:28 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
Quote:

After all, if you do not know it is there, it cannot restrict your behaviour!


You do understand how false this is though, right? WH residents dont cruise around in blissful ignorance that a cloak might be in system. They are constantly prepapred for it. The difference is that in WH space you cant hot drop on people. The only way to bring in help is if its already there or sitting close to the WH entrance.

Removing a cloaked ship from local does nothing more than just boost the power of that ship and it's been said already that people would become more unwilling to undock due to the constant fear of losing a high end asset with no warning at all.

This has all already been said

I do assure you it is quite possible to lose a high end asset with no warning at all in wormhole space, in fact it is the normal way to lose one. And although we do not have hot drops, a cloaked ship can provide a warp in to a host of interdictors closely followed by one's worst nightmare. If of course they are not already uncloaking off your starboard bow.

The difference is we do not have an unexplained local worrying us by its being so out of place, knowing it is not yours, and worrying you as to what it might be? Bomber, griefer, noob ship, t3, or cynoalt.

Sometimes, ignorance is bliss.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Alundil
Rolled Out
#1329 - 2015-03-06 23:27:13 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
WH residents dont cruise around in blissful ignorance that a cloak might be in system. They are constantly prepapred for it. The difference is that in WH space you cant hot drop on people. The only way to bring in help is if its already there or sitting close to the WH entrance.


Haywoud Jablomi - "Now, that's a name I've not heard in a long time. A long time."

You are correct in your first sentence. Caveat; Situationally Aware pilots do not cruise around in blissful ignorance. Not all pilots are such.

Most pilots are prepared for a hostile ship to decloak nearby/on grid. Not all are (see above).

No Cynos in wspace is correct. There are several methods of engagement which can be just as dangerous/devastating to the hunted or the hunter depending on their respective levels of preparation and situational awareness. Holding Cyno mechanics out as the 'piece de resistance' is not going to go very far in comparisons other than those dealing with amount of mass capable of being brought to bear.

As to your last point:

Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
it's been said already that people would become more unwilling to undock due to the constant fear of losing a high end asset with no warning at all.

The counter proof of this statement is readily available for all to see. If your statement and it's assumptions were true then you would see no losses in wspace, ever, other than cheap and easily replaced fodder/throwaway ships and modules. Reality is very different than your statement and clearly shows that pilots will use whatever asset that they feel will do the job with the best efficiency and/or expected outcome when taking cost and risk into account. This happens in wspace daily even when the pilots live under the very real chance of losing that asset to something which they cannot see nor can they predict the time of its appearance. Your complaint is unfounded and your speculation about who will do and risk what is equally inaccurate.

I'm right behind you
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#1330 - 2015-03-06 23:30:53 UTC
Oh I know. Not saying it doesnt happen. Just saying that WH's have a different set of rules and mechanics that dont really apply to null. I dont agree that removing ships from local would be the right solution on its own.

Ignorance might be bliss but no WHer is ignorant of the threat around them. They simply assume it will happen at any given time.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#1331 - 2015-03-06 23:49:21 UTC
I think we all understand that WH space is not null. I dont live in WH's, so my experience is highly limited. But from my understanding, there are no cheap ships in WH space. The level of difficulty for running sites, even at a C1 is more difficult than your average null site. Entrances and exits to a WH are limited and can be rolled so there is a finite amount of people that can suddenly attack you.

I think that if null were to have the same style of local as a WH, you would see most people simply move to high sec. The mechanics of the areas are too different to make fair comparisons.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1332 - 2015-03-07 00:29:34 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
I think we all understand that WH space is not null. I dont live in WH's, so my experience is highly limited. But from my understanding, there are no cheap ships in WH space. The level of difficulty for running sites, even at a C1 is more difficult than your average null site. Entrances and exits to a WH are limited and can be rolled so there is a finite amount of people that can suddenly attack you.

I think that if null were to have the same style of local as a WH, you would see most people simply move to high sec. The mechanics of the areas are too different to make fair comparisons.



No, I relish and respect the differences that make wormhole space special.
It does seem that the whole cloaky afk camper problem is more a problem of perception.
Knowing someone is there, watching you, and feeling powerless to remove them, must be a highly unpleasant experience.

It may be a strange way of looking at it, but it is the same as some insurance policies, I once discussed with an insurance underwriter in London, why people would sell insurance policies that could never pay out as the terms were so strict, to good, simple simple people, who work so hard to make ends meet, and who have so little. and did he not feel bad?

His answer was he did not.

I followed up with but you are selling them worthless policies.

His reply was " but they are not worthless, until they try to claim they do not know, so I give them years of peace of mind for their money."

We shook hands, parted, and he drove off in his Ferrari.

So my proposal is simply to give Null residents peace of mind.

Letting cloaked ships pilots be cloaked to local when the cloak is active will restore confidence.

People love to feel confident.

If people seeing cloaky campers in local, makes them nervous, remove what makes them anxious.

It will deliver weeks and months of Peace of mind.

Think of it as insurance.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1333 - 2015-03-07 01:21:37 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
A suggestion was made, by a respected individual, who shall remain nameless for opsec reasons, that was like a light bulb moment.


Made a similar suggestion some pages back. The proviso was that cloaked ship interacts with local as in w-space, i.e. see only those that spoke in his presence.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#1334 - 2015-03-07 02:11:03 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
I think we all understand that WH space is not null. I dont live in WH's, so my experience is highly limited. But from my understanding, there are no cheap ships in WH space. The level of difficulty for running sites, even at a C1 is more difficult than your average null site. Entrances and exits to a WH are limited and can be rolled so there is a finite amount of people that can suddenly attack you.

I think that if null were to have the same style of local as a WH, you would see most people simply move to high sec. The mechanics of the areas are too different to make fair comparisons.

C1/c2/c3 sites can be run in T1 battlecruisers. Very cheap. C1 and C2 sites also aren't terribly challenging. Increasing efficiency gets more expensive but that is not unique to wspace.

It's been some time since I did any 00 null anoms but T1 ships were possible there at that time (battleships and then later tier 3 battlecruisers).

I'm right behind you
Kelaiani Stareine
Incursion Money Laundering
#1335 - 2015-03-07 04:04:01 UTC
stop being lazy and do DED sites where they can't light a cyno. enough said.
Terraniel Aurelius
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1336 - 2015-03-07 05:57:48 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:


1
If you don't understand the concept, ridiculing it seems rather shallow.

Let's simplify it, for more general understanding. CONSENSUAL means you are present and participating purely by choice.
You did not screw up and get ganked, to be here, and you were not trapped by other circumstances either.

2
Then limiting the ability to hot drop would seem a better solution for gameplay.
The spool-up idea I described covers that.
My solution keeps standard cyno usage intact, for other intents and purposes.

The rest of your argument seems based on the point: Because 'Hot-Dropping'....


Oh, I understand it quite well, actually living in and defending sov everyday, and seeing the consequences of this broken mechanic. What I don't understand is how you seem to be able to grasp some separate pieces of the problem, without being able to comprehend the entire picture. I mean, you are basically making our points for us, and then you draw some crazy left-field conclusion based on unrelated factors and throw in some wild speculation for flavour. At this point, I'm pretty sure you're a troll who is desperately trying to hang on to a way of easily ganking people who try to play the game when you are camping their system for hours in a covops ship.

Cyno spool up is a terrible idea in that it completely takes away any surprise factor and an extremely important tactical tool. With spool-up , any ship lighting a cyno in a fleet engagement is doomed to get alpha'd off the field. Cyno injection of forces into a battle would be severely hampered. So you can pretty much just say that was a fun idea, but it won't work, so no. After the changes to jump mechanics, we don't need to make it even harder to move around for quick strikes.

AFK cloaking is a crappy mechanic. It's as simple as that. It doesn't do anything to make the game more exciting/interesting/engaging. Instead it does the opposite. So it should be changed.
Kelaiani Stareine
Incursion Money Laundering
#1337 - 2015-03-07 06:06:02 UTC
Terraniel Aurelius wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Area denial is the unintended outcome, which was promoted by two sides:

The real problem in null is unresolved stalemates, coming from these existing conditions.


And THAT is what everyone else here is saying, You're just adding in a whole bunch of nonsense about non-consensual pvp and vapid notions of how null and cloaky camping works.

Currently xxPizzaxx has deployed to npc delve. They have roughly a dozen cloaky camping alts with covops cynos sitting in any system of notable activity. Those alts are not manned 24/7, but they are online, in space 23.5/7. In their staging system, the attacking force is online, in space, cloaked up. They have scouts 1 jump out in every direction. This is an operation of roughly 50 toons.
These guys are able to strike targets because there is no viable method to counter their hotdrops. Everyone knows what a trap looks like, and it's just a waiting game to see who gets bored and logs off first. The problem is that the cloaky campers don't have to log off, they can just get up from the computer and leave their toons logged in, an no one is the wiser.

The activities that are available in null don't support a defensive fleet protecting the miners in order to keep the campers at bay, so it's a completely unfeasible course of action.

So for anyone who is smart enough to avoid losses, the game is effectively halted, because the campers don't want to fight, they just want to gank. This is what the majority of campers want.

So your "unintended consequence" is the most boring possible outcome in this situation, and it keeps happening. Something needs to be done to allow the tables to be turned on cloakers more often (during active gameplay), instead of just making it easier to find unsuspecting targets. Because that's not a fight. That's a gank. Yesterday I had the wonderful opportunity to kill a vexor navy issue with a gang that wasn't even cloaky, just because he wasn't paying attention to local. Everyone else docked/possed up. Was the gameplay exciting? No. Would it have been different if we could cloak? No. Would we have made everyone's gameplay crappier by sitting in system for hours on end, waiting for them to come out so we could gank them? No.

This is the reality of cloaky camping. It's a ****** mechanic, just like stagnant sov. The solution isn't to make the stalemate even more stale, but to add in a new element that allows for more action instead of just reaction. Delaying local or even removing it is a shortsighted tactic at best, especially with the modes of travel available in nullsec. All that would do is make people less likely to risk ships. I'm not sure if you know this, but most people don't like their ships getting blown up for nothing.

If you put in a way to hunt cloakers, then you have actually created something for both hunters and prey to actively do. Then it would only take 1 person to engage 1 camper. That sounds like a reasonable balance. If you further restrict it to an on-grid function, then you ensure that the activity still requires a higher degree of vigilance by the defenders.

I would argue that this would actually create more content because cloakers would no longer be able to just wait for a weak target of opportunity, but would have to prepare themselves for a higher rate of failure, or even prepare a strong counter to the defenders. The defenders, by feeling that they are safer would be more willing to risk ships and shiny things, as well as log in for more activity when they feel they have a chance to defend themselves.

Area suppression would still be possible, but it would take more effort on the part of the attackers than simply logging in a bunch of alts and leaving them cloaked up in space.

I'm not advocating an absolute defense against cloaking. Not even remotely. I am advocating a way to engage more players in actually engaging in active gameplay. Cloaking is an important tactical and strategic element in Eve, and I would be absolutely horrified if we made it require cap or have some sort of a refresh button. That would be absolutely (cloaky) game-breaking.

Any "solutions" involving removing local would just make for a more stagnant and empty nullsec environment. Targets would dry up because people don't like living under constant threat. That is why most players live in high-sec right now. Think about the actual effects. Sure, people who love ganking would be able to pounce on people more often - for the first while. But is that guy who lost 2 paladins this week able to replace them faster than he loses them? Or will he just give up and go do incursions? Or even unsubscribe, because there's nothing else that's interesting?

You might say "good riddance" or "htfu" or "he didn't deserve sov anyways". But then who is going to hold sov? All the hunters? And how will they make enough to pay their sov bills every month? Especially since they can't rat or mine due to other bored bands of roamers running around, looking for ganks?

Living in null is already difficult enough. You can see that simply from the population distribution of Eve. Making it harder won't make the game better for anyone in the long term.



Stop being lazy and learn to do DEDs, which is how I pay for all of my camping toons. I can't light cynos there.
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#1338 - 2015-03-07 06:06:08 UTC
how can someone whos afk affect you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
Rhavas
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#1339 - 2015-03-07 06:18:25 UTC
I'm just going to leave this here:

CCP Fozzie on EVE Down Under Show

Take a listen (this bit is around 1:12:00), there's a short but important note on AFK Cloaking. Here's the TLDR:

CCP Fozzie wrote:
"It's very important that it be possible to disrupt people's moneymaking in nullsec. And AFK cloaking is one of the most effective ways that we have right now to do so. We're not worried about cloaked ships being overpowered. It turns out that that while a ship is cloaked it does very little DPS ... AFK cloaking is not an issue in wormhole space and there's a very good reason for that."

Can we close this thread now?

Author of Interstellar Privateer Shattered Planets, Wormholes and Game Commentary
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#1340 - 2015-03-07 07:14:38 UTC
I do find that rather amazing. CCP is ok with a broke mechanic. It would seem that Fozzie is tipping his hand at removing local from null.

Though who knows how long that will take. They talked about sov for years and nothing happened till now.

We shall see what happens.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)