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N. Korea is a strange place.

Author
Alara IonStorm
#21 - 2011-12-21 04:38:54 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

A better outcome: pull all US assets back to CONUS and if they want to be idiots, let them destroy each other.

Loose professional Star Craft...

I don't think so.
Umega
Solis Mensa
#22 - 2011-12-21 06:14:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Umega
Zions Child wrote:
Astenion wrote:
Not that simple.

Japan will enter the war from the outset, taking on an active combat role. China will as well, whether it be indirect or direct remains to be seen. Then you have Taiwan, South Korea, and the US trying to not get pushed into the sea by a bunch of fanatic communists while Japan will be as busy as a one-legged man in an ass kicking contest, trying to keep the aggression away from their island while supporting the operation. Not only will it be a bloody mess but you have three of the world's biggest economies that are all about to nuke each other. It's not a pretty picture. I can't imagine a worse scenario.


China has one very real fear, and that is that the U.S. will reprimand them in some way for aiding N. Korea directly, so they WILL NOT get involved in the war. They may send weapons or something, but to be completely honest the war will end so quickly it wouldn't be meaningful.

Why is China scared?

Because a popular President that was lucky enough to hit the crest of the interweb market boom decided to prolong the upturn, and bend over Europe in the process.. signed a free trade act with China in 1999 that got them into the WOT. It was believed this would increase jobs in the States and keep the small business interweb boom afloat, and China's industry wasn't ready and would lose jobs to other countries.

What actually happened was Walmart gave birth to AI.. Artifical Income. The result was that other corp powers, lead by Wallyworld, ended up getting mass goods imported from China.. because as it turned out, China's Industry was up to task to develop reasonable quality goods at a fraction of the cost the States and European countries would. Fort Knox is now the property of the Republic and small companies got buried by the large Corps with the none tariff'd goods they could import from China. Simply look at Walmarts spike since 1999.. as well as China's economy. What a coincidence..

China and several key parent Corporations do not want the States lust to consume fickle material possessions harmed with bad publicity. Who buys Russian anything besides Vodka because of Cold War? Look at what happened to Toyota with bad publicity.. American car companies boomed same time Toyota took a sharp downward hit. What a coincidence..

Imagine China funding a country at war with the States.. imagine.. WW2 sleeping giant machine waking up again. No country really wants the States to hit the level of power without a Soviet Union counter. Especailly since the biggest reveal is China themselves, and their economy is so strongly tied to the US purchasing power. Hence.. China is scared of funding anyone vs US.


Sorry, fixed up your post a touch. Couldn't resist.
Zions Child
Higashikata Industries
#23 - 2011-12-21 06:22:48 UTC
Umega wrote:

Sorry, fixed up your post a touch. Couldn't resist.


News flash: America is the sole superpower and to dislodge it from that position would require inhuman levels of luck and unity amongst every other nation on the planet.

This is not new, also, Europe is very happy that America has such a large army and is so militaristic, because it means they don't have to spend a lot on their own militaries. They get to have nice little compact defense forces, and leave all the major stuff (including all the logistics) to the United States. For those that argue, in order to become a NATO member, your country must surrender all logistics and command structure to the American military. That being said, it generally allows a country to enjoy unprecedented levels of wealth and happiness.

America is ****** because of inequality, but that's a different debate.
Umega
Solis Mensa
#24 - 2011-12-21 06:53:30 UTC
Zions Child wrote:

This is not new, also, Europe is very happy that America has such a large army and is so militaristic, because it means they don't have to spend a lot on their own militaries. They get to have nice little compact defense forces, and leave all the major stuff (including all the logistics) to the United States. For those that argue, in order to become a NATO member, your country must surrender all logistics and command structure to the American military. That being said, it generally allows a country to enjoy unprecedented levels of wealth and happiness.



Atleast someone else gets why you all have your tax dollars going to free healthcare.. and we don't till old, THEN we get to enjoy a politically corrupt old broken system about as stable as the 80 year old's bladders it doesn't finance medication for! You're welcome!!!
Lamthara Lachesis
Emporio Amarr
#25 - 2011-12-21 12:57:27 UTC
Louis deGuerre wrote:
Cry...or die


i think this too... it could be brainwashing but it could also be that some of them don't want the soldiers to think that maybe "you're not that sad our dear leader died, come with us..."
YuuKnow
The Scope
#26 - 2011-12-21 13:35:10 UTC
Astenion wrote:
I was stationed in SK. It's no joke. People go on with their daily lives and such, but I'd compare it to living next to an active volcano.

If the balloon ever goes up, hundreds of thousands and possibly millions will die on both sides in a matter of days, possibly hours. Seoul will be completely gone in under an hour. Other places like Taegu in the south will probably survive but there will be a massive push north to stop the barrage. The West would definitely win...both sides know this. However, everyone also knows that winning isn't the goal here...it's keeping the status quo that's of utmost importance. The casualties will be so high that winning is just an afterthought.

That said, South Korea is not NATO; they are well-trained, well-equipped, extremely disciplined, and tough as nails. They haven't fully embraced western military employment tactics but they are a bunch of badasses, make no mistake.


You in the military? If so, thanks for the service. We appreciate it.
Lady Skank
Ban Evasion inc
#27 - 2011-12-22 00:59:10 UTC
Why you take the **** of our glorious leader? just because you have no faith in your politicians doesn't the mean the rest of the world does. It is understandable you are so afraid of your inferiority because you know its only time.

Only time before the son of our god leads us all to wage war on the US and its puppet nations, then the rest of the world will know how nations should lead.
BLACK-STAR
#28 - 2011-12-22 01:04:15 UTC
Lady Skank wrote:
Why you take the **** of our glorious leader? just because you have no faith in your politicians doesn't the mean the rest of the world does. It is understandable you are so afraid of your inferiority because you know its only time.

Only time before the son of our god leads us all to wage war on the US and its puppet nations, then the rest of the world will know how nations should lead.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEaKX9YYHiQ
Atticus Fynch
#29 - 2011-12-22 01:04:51 UTC
Lady Skank wrote:
Why you take the **** of our glorious leader? just because you have no faith in your politicians doesn't the mean the rest of the world does. It is understandable you are so afraid of your inferiority because you know its only time.

Only time before the son of our god leads us all to wage war on the US and its puppet nations, then the rest of the world will know how nations should lead.



Son of your leader looks very well fed. Too bad the rest of your people dont.

[b]★★★Cargo Pilots Unite!!!★★★ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132[/b]

Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2011-12-22 18:16:54 UTC
after the nuclear incidents in NK a year or 2 ago, china was mad at north korea. china would not support north korea in a war.
what would happen if they did?

america would most likely ignore all its previous debt to china.
america has the technological firepower to win any war with china.
exports from china to the US would cease, exports to america are the biggest money source of china, their companies would begin to fail.
at the same time, american made companies would rise in america, during war, america bands together

South korea has $$ and very very well trained and equipped troops, North korea has decently equipped troops, but a helluva lot more.
I don't think south korea could hold out on its own, but i'm 90% sure america would be able to defend at least half the country before pushing them back.
Alara IonStorm
#31 - 2011-12-22 20:02:27 UTC
Herping yourDerp wrote:
but a helluva lot more.

In the beginning maybe but America had less then a million soldiers in the 1930's by the end of WW2 had 18 Million Soldiers.

The south has double the population and they are healthier not being half starved. South Koreans tower over there tiny North Korean Neighbors. In all purposes the North is a nation of Midgets.

South Korea has the draft so people are quite well trained from there mandatory tour of duty. They could easily swell there Army to a much larger size then the Starving Hobbit Forces armed with 30 year old Soviet Tech who stand against them.
Dorian Tormak
RBON United
#32 - 2011-12-22 20:34:31 UTC
This **** is seriously ******* depressing.

Holy Satanic Christ! This is a Goddamn Signature!

Astenion
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2011-12-22 20:49:04 UTC
As I said before, it's not a question of who would win; it's more of a question of limiting massive loss of life and property. Of course the western military powers would win, there is no question. But at what cost? It was previously mentioned that any place in range of NK artillery would be no-man's land, and this is an undeniable fact. Millions of people live in that no-man's land, however. The US has about 30,000 troops in SK as we speak, but many, many, many more would be deployed into theater to augment them...MANY more.

The biggest threat from NK is not their technology, their capabilities, or even their nuclear ambitions. The biggest threat would be their special operations forces, which hover around the one million mark. Basically, you're gonna have a bunch of fearless, arr-hair-dear-reader NK forces literally on the top of Mr. Potato's music store and on top of The Tiger Bar in downtown Songtan launching North Korean stinger missile equivalents at the Vipers taking off from Osan AB, only they'll be everywhere.

The biggest threat to American forces in SK is the spec ops forces being dropped from AN-2s, not their single squadron of MiG-29s they can't afford to fly. Read up on the AN-2 and you can extrapolate why.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#34 - 2011-12-22 20:51:10 UTC
Zions Child wrote:
Umega wrote:

Sorry, fixed up your post a touch. Couldn't resist.


News flash: America is the sole superpower and to dislodge it from that position would require inhuman levels of luck and unity amongst every other nation on the planet.

This is not new, also, Europe is very happy that America has such a large army and is so militaristic, because it means they don't have to spend a lot on their own militaries. They get to have nice little compact defense forces, and leave all the major stuff (including all the logistics) to the United States. For those that argue, in order to become a NATO member, your country must surrender all logistics and command structure to the American military. That being said, it generally allows a country to enjoy unprecedented levels of wealth and happiness.

America is ****** because of inequality, but that's a different debate.


The UK has no need of the USA to win wars. Also China would tear USA apart if it ever went after them.
Jhagiti Tyran
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#35 - 2011-12-23 00:01:30 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
The UK has no need of the USA to win wars. Also China would tear USA apart if it ever went after them.


Not really, no country or even some coalitions of countries could stand toe to toe with the US in conventional war. Thousands of cruise missile platforms? check, state of the art carriers and huge carrier launched air force? check, stealth air craft for undetected intruder missions, even nuclear strikes? check, massive amphibious assault capability? check, ability to shoot down all tactical and strategic missiles from mobile platforms? check, fleet of the some of the best attack submarines in the world? check.

I could go on posting all night, but I think that's enough to make my point. Lots of countries like the UK can match the US on a technical level but they don't have the huge amounts the US can muster.
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2011-12-23 01:01:17 UTC
Herping yourDerp wrote:
after the nuclear incidents in NK a year or 2 ago, china was mad at north korea. china would not support north korea in a war.
what would happen if they did?

america would most likely ignore all its previous debt to china.
america has the technological firepower to win any war with china.
exports from china to the US would cease, exports to america are the biggest money source of china, their companies would begin to fail.
at the same time, american made companies would rise in america, during war, america bands together

South korea has $$ and very very well trained and equipped troops, North korea has decently equipped troops, but a helluva lot more.
I don't think south korea could hold out on its own, but i'm 90% sure america would be able to defend at least half the country before pushing them back.


One problem with this is that China has a very massive stockpile of US currency which they can, at any time, throw back into the system which will almost instantly uproot and piledrive our economy straight into the ICU. Then it won't pay to keep our feeding tube in and laugh at us while we starve

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny

Adunh Slavy
#37 - 2011-12-23 01:26:36 UTC
Atticus Fynch wrote:
I'm watching news footage and the N Korean newscaster is bawling on camera. People bawling in the streets.

WTF?Shocked

Are these people that brainwashed or is it all an act?

Cult of personality is a scary thing.Ugh



Yeah I have watched some too, lots of crying sounds and upset faces, but none of them are wet with tears.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Umega
Solis Mensa
#38 - 2011-12-23 03:09:28 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Zions Child wrote:
Umega wrote:

Sorry, fixed up your post a touch. Couldn't resist.


News flash: America is the sole superpower and to dislodge it from that position would require inhuman levels of luck and unity amongst every other nation on the planet.

This is not new, also, Europe is very happy that America has such a large army and is so militaristic, because it means they don't have to spend a lot on their own militaries. They get to have nice little compact defense forces, and leave all the major stuff (including all the logistics) to the United States. For those that argue, in order to become a NATO member, your country must surrender all logistics and command structure to the American military. That being said, it generally allows a country to enjoy unprecedented levels of wealth and happiness.

America is ****** because of inequality, but that's a different debate.


The UK has no need of the USA to win wars. Also China would tear USA apart if it ever went after them.


I have no doubt UK could hold their own alone against a vast majority.. altho I highly doubt that day will ever come. And I'm sorry.. but they would lose to the obvious three.. and maybe the wildcards ppl forget that is India and Iran.

Gulf War.. Iraq I believe was considered the 4th strongest military on the planet prior to the war. Couple weeks in.. yeah. Their happened to be quite a laaaarrrrggggeee gap between strength of 1st and 4th. The second go around.. they did what they knew and had to do, Charlie it up.

Excluding the likely nuclear winter scenario and use of such weapons.. China vs US is a toss up. China's air power and jet abilities certainly have taken a step up (I'm convinced they somehow got raptor tech...).. but their navy compared to the US is uhm.. not even in question at this moment in time. Obviously China has FAR more trained and ready troops.. but how exactly are they going to get on US soil? At this time.. they have next to zero chance to mass land troops because of the power in each navy. When the time comes that navys match.. yeah, edge China. And I imagine the US will do what has been done to them since the 50s.. Charlie it up against China, but with better tech and abilities.

But this is all POINTLESS. It won't be as simple as China vs US.. never ever going to go down like that. It will be one collection of countries vs another.. the bigger question is..

What does Russia do number one.. And then what does India do.. ? The ultimate answer lies in the answer of those two.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#39 - 2011-12-23 09:52:06 UTC
Jhagiti Tyran wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
The UK has no need of the USA to win wars. Also China would tear USA apart if it ever went after them.


Not really, no country or even some coalitions of countries could stand toe to toe with the US in conventional war. Thousands of cruise missile platforms? check, state of the art carriers and huge carrier launched air force? check, stealth air craft for undetected intruder missions, even nuclear strikes? check, massive amphibious assault capability? check, ability to shoot down all tactical and strategic missiles from mobile platforms? check, fleet of the some of the best attack submarines in the world? check.

I could go on posting all night, but I think that's enough to make my point. Lots of countries like the UK can match the US on a technical level but they don't have the huge amounts the US can muster.


Now for a reality check.

Putting a carrier fleet into range of the world largest airforce which also has stealth aircraft is a terrible idea as is discounding the worlds third largest collection of nukes. Then you have the problem of the chinese have perhaps the best tank in the world. It might look like an outdated cold war relic but it is infact armed with some fantastic equipment. If you point a laser at it from say, a javlin the tanks crew will instantly know where you are. Best of all is their ability to track the radio communications by forces using BOWMAN, which is everyone in NATO. They dont know what is being said but that doesnt matter when you know exactly where the enemy is. This tank also gets thrown out the back of a plane as a paratrooper.
Jhagiti Tyran
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#40 - 2011-12-23 11:21:46 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Jhagiti Tyran wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
The UK has no need of the USA to win wars. Also China would tear USA apart if it ever went after them.


Not really, no country or even some coalitions of countries could stand toe to toe with the US in conventional war. Thousands of cruise missile platforms? check, state of the art carriers and huge carrier launched air force? check, stealth air craft for undetected intruder missions, even nuclear strikes? check, massive amphibious assault capability? check, ability to shoot down all tactical and strategic missiles from mobile platforms? check, fleet of the some of the best attack submarines in the world? check.

I could go on posting all night, but I think that's enough to make my point. Lots of countries like the UK can match the US on a technical level but they don't have the huge amounts the US can muster.


Now for a reality check.

Putting a carrier fleet into range of the world largest airforce which also has stealth aircraft is a terrible idea as is discounding the worlds third largest collection of nukes. Then you have the problem of the chinese have perhaps the best tank in the world. It might look like an outdated cold war relic but it is infact armed with some fantastic equipment. If you point a laser at it from say, a javlin the tanks crew will instantly know where you are. Best of all is their ability to track the radio communications by forces using BOWMAN, which is everyone in NATO. They dont know what is being said but that doesnt matter when you know exactly where the enemy is. This tank also gets thrown out the back of a plane as a paratrooper.


We all know how well air dropped tanks worked out, no tank is a real threat to an M1. Being alerted to laser painting isn't much use when your enemy can use Millimetre Wave Radar guided missiles fired from UAVs either, you can paint the target for 2-3 seconds then disengage the beam and the missile will take care of its self. Not that knowing where the missile is coming from will help the crew much anyway. Tracking equipment is a standard issue for modern forces, and RDF equipment has been around since WW1, its just more sophisticated.

The Carriers need to go nowhere near the Chinese air force, they can sit behind a shield of air defence destroyers (each one capable of shooting down hundreds of aircraft or missiles simultaneously) and anti strategic missile destroyers. Carrier battle groups are quite safe from air attack, almost invulnerable when you factor in the air craft they can launch as well.

I'm not American so my opinion isn't biased, you just have to respect the technical capability's of their forces and the huge weight of materiel they can deploy.