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Crime & Punishment

 
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The end of code?

First post
Author
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#241 - 2015-03-05 23:43:04 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
and do my part to promote market depth and efficiency.

Out of curiosity, can you elaborate on what you mean by that? I'd love to hear your take on what constitutes market efficiency, especially in a closed system.


Sure...market efficiency is when goods sell for the price where the supply and demand curves intersect. This means that goods should sell in a tight band around the natural price, with perhaps some premium to account for hauling to outlying areas. By actively buying and selling goods, I help stabilize prices, and create a more functional market.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#242 - 2015-03-05 23:46:23 UTC
Zealous Miner wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Last I checked blowing up ships is what makes the market run efficiently.

Indeed.

The carebear argument always boils down to: "If it weren't for us there wouldn't be any ships or modules being produced." Whereas any levelheaded player realizes that if it weren't for gankers there would be no demand for these things in the first place.

Veers seems to assume that by printing and injecting ISK into the market from incursions he's helping to "keep it running efficiently" when all he's doing is helping to inflate it like a bunch of hot air and devaluing ISK even more. Veers is neither producing materials or creating a proportional demand for said materials. He's just printing ISK.


This is a deeply confused understanding of market economics. Destruction is in no way necessary for value creation. It's funny how your own statements contradict each other. First you state that without destruction there would be no demand for goods, and predict a crash in prices, so deflation. Then you accuse me of "devaluing isk even more" implying that rampant inflation is taking place.

Odd.

The only way to maintain a price balance given growing production is to increase the money supply - as I do every time I play. That is true heroism, and how the good guys make the universe a better place.
Mark O'Helm
Fam. Zimin von Reizgenschwendt
#243 - 2015-03-05 23:56:13 UTC
I am a highsec ice miner and missionary. First i tried to seek adventures in EVE(as i knew from other games), but after the pve missions objectives repeated itself over and over i realized that EVE is about other things. It's about the community. And about ISK. Everything is about making money. It's a "War Economy" as Old Snake called it in Metal Gear Solid 4. I played that Game a lot and also watched the whole "8 hours" of cutscenes(at least. I counted it) more then i maybe should have.
And what i saw in New Eden, what i read in the forums, in the PHB (Pilotenhandbuch/Pilothandbook) of Donaldo Duck http://dd.1o1o1o.de/phbv3/ (300pages, afask only in german) and in the ingame chats reminded me of what was said in MGS4. Everything we do, mine, refine, produce, sell or buy keeps the war on going.
The few things i found, that are not useful for fighting other players or npcs like frozen food, water, soil, even different kinds of people you can buy and sell seem a bit worthless to me. What is sad, because i see potencial in it. But where is not, ey?
(The door will never open)

I don't like Code. I lost a few ships to you guys. I don't like bumpers. I also don't like afk miners and haulers and mining fleets with 20 skiffs(Even after the clear statement from CCP about the [miss]use of isboxer i tend to see them)

But i like, that you care about the game, and that you want everybody to be activ and aware. Maybe you would like mining better, if it where more like this. http://youtu.be/7iroudUFGFM I think i would. Maybe i am honoring the code by doing so. But i will never pay the 10 Mill. ISK you want. I consider this racketeering. And i will always warn my fellow miners when i see you or other known gankers in local or in the killboard of the region i mine in.

Btw. Code. is not the only strange content creator in the game. Did you heard of the "Goner Temple"? An Eve based religous corp about seeking the pass back to earth trough the EVE Gate.

Fly safe and explode with pride.

Ps. Sry 4 mi bat englisch.

"Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen. Aber Frauen wollen keine Frauenversteher. Weil Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen." (Ein Single)

"Wirklich coolen Leuten ist es egal, ob sie cool sind." (Einer, dem es egal ist)

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#244 - 2015-03-06 02:10:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Mark O'Helm wrote:
I am a highsec ice miner and missionary. First i tried to seek adventures in EVE(as i knew from other games), but after the pve missions objectives repeated itself over and over i realized that EVE is about other things. It's about the community. And about ISK. Everything is about making money. It's a "War Economy" as Old Snake called it in Metal Gear Solid 4. I played that Game a lot and also watched the whole "8 hours" of cutscenes(at least. I counted it) more then i maybe should have.
And what i saw in New Eden, what i read in the forums, in the PHB (Pilotenhandbuch/Pilothandbook) of Donaldo Duck http://dd.1o1o1o.de/phbv3/ (300pages, afask only in german) and in the ingame chats reminded me of what was said in MGS4. Everything we do, mine, refine, produce, sell or buy keeps the war on going.
The few things i found, that are not useful for fighting other players or npcs like frozen food, water, soil, even different kinds of people you can buy and sell seem a bit worthless to me. What is sad, because i see potencial in it. But where is not, ey?
(The door will never open)
You appear to get Eve, you should do well with that attitude.

Quote:
I don't like Code. I lost a few ships to you guys. I don't like bumpers. I also don't like afk miners and haulers and mining fleets with 20 skiffs(Even after the clear statement from CCP about the [miss]use of isboxer i tend to see them)
That's fair enough, you don't have to like everybody or everything in the game.

CODE. are actually nice folks for the most part once you get around the RP thing, I'd guess that you fit for tank over yield now? Bumping is a controversial mechanic, however it is a longstanding one that has legitimate uses, ganking being one. AFK miners and haulers may as well be NPC's for the amount of interaction they put into the game, gankers treat them as such. On the subject of 20 Skiff fleets, it is possible to multibox them with ISboxer without violating the recent EULA changes; they are like locusts though, they strip all of the things leaving nothing behind.

Quote:
But i like, that you care about the game, and that you want everybody to be activ and aware.
This is why you'll do well here, you might not like what they do, but you recognise that it has some positives.

Quote:
Maybe i am honoring the code by doing so. But i will never pay the 10 Mill. ISK you want. I consider this racketeering. And i will always warn my fellow miners when i see you or other known gankers in local or in the killboard of the region i mine in.
Totally fair, it is racketeering, an activity that is allowed in Eve. When you warn other miners you're doing it right, just out of interest how many ignore you and then explode?

Quote:
Btw. Code. is not the only strange content creator in the game. Did you heard of the "Goner Temple"? An Eve based religous corp about seeking the pass back to earth trough the EVE Gate.

Fly safe and explode with pride.

Ps. Sry 4 mi bat englisch.
lol @ Goner Temple, never heard of it myself but that's certainly one way of playing Eve, it is an RPG after all.

Don't worry about your English, it's way better than that of some native speakers and infinitely better than my German these days.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Zealous Miner
Doomheim
#245 - 2015-03-06 03:08:33 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Destruction is in no way necessary for value creation.

It is in a world where nothing expires through natural means. Ships never get old. Modules never wear out. Not even abandoned Player Owned Starbases go bad. The only thing that is guaranteed to be destroyed (through usage) is ammunition, boosters, fuel, etc. Consumables.
Veers Belvar wrote:
It's funny how your own statements contradict each other. First you state that without destruction there would be no demand for goods, and predict a crash in prices, so deflation. Then you accuse me of "devaluing isk even more" implying that rampant inflation is taking place.

The first statement is indeed correct. However, I never said anything about a crash in prices. Why? Because, destruction is still taking place at this very moment. Ships are still being destroyed. Modules are still being destroyed. Cargo is still being destroyed.

The second statement is also correct. The only thing an incursion runner tends to "destroy" on a regular basis is ammunition. In return they receive piles of liquid ISK (money) many times greater than the value of the ammunition (resource) they consumed and the value of the Loyalty Points (resource) they acquired. All of this is achieved through a form of Player vs. Environment gameplay that by this point has been optimized for maximum efficiency. Incursions indeed contribute to inflation.
Veers Belvar wrote:
The only way to maintain a price balance given growing production is to increase the money supply - as I do every time I play.

Sure. The only way to deal with overproduction is to just print and throw more ISK at it. We can't simply remove the overabundance of product by blowing up ships, modules, fuel, cargo, etc. because it's "mean" and "not nice."

Fedo. Fedo? Fedo!

Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#246 - 2015-03-06 03:21:54 UTC

Never trust the man generating ISK out of thin air about EVE market steady state stability. You can thank him for pointless inflation, but that's about all.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Mark O'Helm
Fam. Zimin von Reizgenschwendt
#247 - 2015-03-06 04:26:30 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
I'd guess that you fit for tank over yield now?
Actually i love my two maxed yield hulks. They make 3 pieces of ice every minute each. But i also have two skiffs in the orca for a quick change, wich can do 2 pieces in 50 seconds.

Quote:
When you warn other miners you're doing it right, just out of interest how many ignore you and then explode?
I don't know, if they ignore me or just cannot read my warning because afk. Happens too often.

Quote:
lol @ Goner Temple, never heard of it myself but that's certainly one way of playing Eve, it is an RPG after all.

I have an alt in the temple myself who joins the eternal Journey to the Eve Gate. Everyday i play i first log in there and use the Loginjump to come closer to it. Sometimes i got luck and make a big step (1Mill. km)in almost the right direction. We have reached 21.4 Au from the stargate a few days ago.

"Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen. Aber Frauen wollen keine Frauenversteher. Weil Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen." (Ein Single)

"Wirklich coolen Leuten ist es egal, ob sie cool sind." (Einer, dem es egal ist)

Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#248 - 2015-03-06 04:29:52 UTC
Zealous Miner wrote:

It is in a world where nothing expires through natural means. Ships never get old. Modules never wear out. Not even abandoned Player Owned Starbases go bad. The only thing that is guaranteed to be destroyed (through usage) is ammunition, boosters, fuel, etc. Consumables.

The first statement is indeed correct. However, I never said anything about a crash in prices. Why? Because, destruction is still taking place at this very moment. Ships are still being destroyed. Modules are still being destroyed. Cargo is still being destroyed.

The second statement is also correct. The only thing an incursion runner tends to "destroy" on a regular basis is ammunition. In return they receive piles of liquid ISK (money) many times greater than the value of the ammunition (resource) they consumed and the value of the Loyalty Points (resource) they acquired. All of this is achieved through a form of Player vs. Environment gameplay that by this point has been optimized for maximum efficiency. Incursions indeed contribute to inflation.

Sure. The only way to deal with overproduction is to just print and throw more ISK at it. We can't simply remove the overabundance of product by blowing up ships, modules, fuel, cargo, etc. because it's "mean" and "not nice."


Seriously confused about economics....what do you care if there is a lot of stuff at a certain price or less stuff at a certain price? I mean what is your boogeyman here, inflation or deflation? You seem to be blaming me for inflation in a deflationary environment....grrr veers...grrr incursions....but come on man, at least be consistent.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#249 - 2015-03-06 04:30:45 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

Never trust the man generating ISK out of thin air about EVE market steady state stability. You can thank him for pointless inflation, but that's about all.



Could you give me an example of this "pointless inflation?"
Mark O'Helm
Fam. Zimin von Reizgenschwendt
#250 - 2015-03-06 04:36:43 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

Never trust the man generating ISK out of thin air about EVE market steady state stability. You can thank him for pointless inflation, but that's about all.


Normally this is a big problem for a rl economy. Printing money makes it worthless. But isnt that what all missioners and ratters do all day? It have to be Billions of Isk what is generated every day out of nothing that way. How can this work, and not cause an immens inflation every day? It's a trick i guess. Like spawning billions of m3 of asteroids every downtime, what would normally take mill. of years to happen. Even in the year 23000 creating ore out of nowhere will not be doable, i guess.

"Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen. Aber Frauen wollen keine Frauenversteher. Weil Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen." (Ein Single)

"Wirklich coolen Leuten ist es egal, ob sie cool sind." (Einer, dem es egal ist)

Waltaratzor
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
#251 - 2015-03-06 05:17:41 UTC
Mark O'Helm wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:

Never trust the man generating ISK out of thin air about EVE market steady state stability. You can thank him for pointless inflation, but that's about all.


Normally this is a big problem for a rl economy. Printing money makes it worthless. But isnt that what all missioners and ratters do all day? It have to be Billions of Isk what is generated every day out of nothing that way. How can this work, and not cause an immens inflation every day? It's a trick i guess. Like spawning billions of m3 of asteroids every downtime, what would normally take mill. of years to happen. Even in the year 23000 creating ore out of nowhere will not be doable, i guess.


In Eve the isk is eliminated through isk sinks(trading, implants, mission rewards).

Ultimately though it relies on stuff being destroyed.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#252 - 2015-03-06 05:21:05 UTC
Waltaratzor wrote:
Mark O'Helm wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:

Never trust the man generating ISK out of thin air about EVE market steady state stability. You can thank him for pointless inflation, but that's about all.


Normally this is a big problem for a rl economy. Printing money makes it worthless. But isnt that what all missioners and ratters do all day? It have to be Billions of Isk what is generated every day out of nothing that way. How can this work, and not cause an immens inflation every day? It's a trick i guess. Like spawning billions of m3 of asteroids every downtime, what would normally take mill. of years to happen. Even in the year 23000 creating ore out of nowhere will not be doable, i guess.


In Eve the isk is eliminated through isk sinks(trading, implants, mission rewards).

Ultimately though it relies on stuff being destroyed.


lol, no, it relies in stuff being created. deflation is happening because much more stuff is created than destroyed.
Mark O'Helm
Fam. Zimin von Reizgenschwendt
#253 - 2015-03-06 05:39:52 UTC
Waltaratzor wrote:

In Eve the isk is eliminated through isk sinks(trading, implants, mission rewards).

I don't buy implants very often. Nore do people who do often pvp imo, because of podding. And how can mission rewards be isk sinks when they generate isk?

"Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen. Aber Frauen wollen keine Frauenversteher. Weil Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen." (Ein Single)

"Wirklich coolen Leuten ist es egal, ob sie cool sind." (Einer, dem es egal ist)

Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#254 - 2015-03-06 05:48:39 UTC

Veers Belvar wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:

Never trust the man generating ISK out of thin air about EVE market steady state stability. You can thank him for pointless inflation, but that's about all.



Could you give me an example of this "pointless inflation?"


"Pointless" means having no use or purpose. "Pointless" also means having no significant effect one way or the other.

Your assertion that somehow your contributions are a net positive don't appear to reference any theoretical trade volume, or correlating economic theory (yes, I know you type a lot of words that look academic). Your sense of importance, in the economic sphere, appears to be overblown.

On the other hand, CODE. does appear to have a measurable social impact in the game.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#255 - 2015-03-06 12:55:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Sibyyl wrote:
Your sense of importance , in the economic sphere, appears to be overblown.
FTFY P

Quote:
On the other hand, CODE. does appear to have a measurable social impact in the game.
He does have a measurable social impact, just not the one that he thinks or wants Twisted

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#256 - 2015-03-06 13:17:55 UTC
Yes, I had a similar social impact about twenty years ago when I aired 'Urotsukidoji' at a party full of mixed company.
Many STILL bear scars from that night.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#257 - 2015-03-06 13:28:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
Yes, I had a similar social impact about twenty years ago when I aired 'Urotsukidoji' at a party full of mixed company.
Many STILL bear scars from that night.
Hah haven't seen Legend of the Overfiend or Legend of the Demon Womb in years, Doomed Megalopolis was pretty good too.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#258 - 2015-03-06 15:56:24 UTC
Geez. It's called supply and demand. Read a book or google it FFS.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#259 - 2015-03-06 16:51:58 UTC

This thread is now about tentacle sex.



Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Paranoid Loyd
#260 - 2015-03-06 16:56:20 UTC
I'll try anything at least once.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!