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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

First post First post First post
Author
Optimist Bob
Perkone
Caldari State
#2041 - 2015-03-05 03:05:23 UTC
Might I respectfully suggest that CCP consider one small change.
That rather than reinforcing with an Entosis module incrementally, an attacker must have his Entosis module on the sovereignty unit being attacked for the full timer.
Thus, any form of LOL reinforcing may be reverse trolled by simply waiting until the timer has nearly expired before decloaking a Falcon, jamming the aggressor and resetting the entire process.
Thus, an attacker must be committed to the conquest, or run the risk of being trolled himself.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#2042 - 2015-03-05 03:12:10 UTC
Optimist Bob wrote:
Might I respectfully suggest that CCP consider one small change.
That rather than reinforcing with an Entosis module incrementally, an attacker must have his Entosis module on the sovereignty unit being attacked for the full timer.
Thus, any form of LOL reinforcing may be reverse trolled by simply waiting until the timer has nearly expired before decloaking a Falcon, jamming the aggressor and resetting the entire process.
Thus, an attacker must be committed to the conquest, or run the risk of being trolled himself.

Maybe too harsh to have it fully reset each time but also it backs up my prior suggestion for marauders to be the uber entosis ships with ewar immunity but no time penalty :)

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

win189
Little Sky Cats
#2043 - 2015-03-05 03:13:17 UTC
Well it seems CCp did another lets go have a party at the local pub and head back to work to make ideas for Sov as we keep holding back all info or train of thought cause were going to think of this in 1 hour or less

ill put this Simple and in a brief overview

Link idea Good

making link easy to obtain and were any one that paid for a 1 month subscription can trol 3 systems (very bad)
(possible fix Science 5 infomorph 2 for t1 5 for t2 and that it can only be fitted on a t2 or t3)

Timers are far to short even when grinding sov it can take hours less supers on field

Link should use Something Like Stront to work which would encourage more team work and not just one person cloaky camping a system tell no one is inside and then start working a timer

Also any ship with the link can not cloak or has a cool down timer before the ship can cloak


Station services should not be vulnerable unless the tcu is past its first timer as people would just go around trolling people all day and despite your bot policy there are many bots still roaming i can see this just being something put on a bot

any system with 5 5 5 for the indexes should be exempt from any kind of Sov fees seeing that would give this a benefit

The moment the Module is activated it can not be deactivated tell its full cycle is complete preventing cloak the ship can not fly out side the Range of the module during that time and the moment its started alliance is notified and the cycle will last a minimum 15 min and if used on a cap its min should be 14 for t1 13 min for t2

also if home team uses 2 modules and attackers use 1 module the attack should be reversed as long as the 2 modules are still active tell the cycle ends up to a max of 5 total links making it a race to who gets the most links on the object
(example away puts 1 link on defenders put on 1 which opens 3 additional possible links which will be first come first serve team with the most links on after the last ships cycle wins that fight



any system with no station takes no less then 30 min for reinforce regardless of level of system

link on a Stargate can have a chance to temporarily interrupt travel

further more with this taking place it basicly makes Capitals useless you first limit peoples movement and then make it hard to defend

i want my carrier to jump further
M1k3y Koontz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2044 - 2015-03-05 03:14:45 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
Lord TGR wrote:

I'm confident that we've got enough manpower to give "zero craps" about this, and that if anything, we're actually trying to point out an actual problem which'll affect other, smaller groups than us to a much greater degree.

But that'd be ludicrous, right? Because grrgoons.


Over 9 regions? Best of luck with that. I found a WH to Branch once about a month ago, made it 10 systems (and made over 100m in exploration loot) before I saw another player. And he wasn't even CFC.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

M1k3y Koontz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2045 - 2015-03-05 03:21:29 UTC
Mostlyharmlesss wrote:
If the changes goes through like they are now, I'm unironically going to take a 200 man interceptor fleet to Provi and reinforce the entire region in 4 hours.


You know, I remember this kind of rhetoric before. When the mobile siphon units were announced Goons swarmed (no pun intented) the thread with comments about how their siphons would blot out the sun, how they would siphon every moon in EVE.

And it never happened.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#2046 - 2015-03-05 03:22:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

I've been thinking about these blitzing inty fleets. My first though was about all the tools at our disposal to counter such lol-fit ships, for which there are plenty. However, further pondering has brought to mine the underlying problem that is driving this ridiculous scenario:

It comes down to the battle of effort. Sov. war, over the years, has basically evolved into break-their-will campaigns, where you first exhaust your opponent's will to fight long before you successfully take their space. The problem with the proposed scenario isn't so much inty's RF'ing structures, but that the effort to reclaim those structures is pretty heavy.

We can prevent inties and dessies from fitting the entosis link, but we'll still have the same situation. It is very easy for an organization to segregate their fleet into many, many small parts that simultaneously attack the sov of many structures. While many of these individuals will be countered, many more will also succeed. This is true anytime you have an empire expanding more than a constellation. Every successfully RF'd structure then results in a not insignificant effort by the defenders to reclaim the system or lose it.

The disparity is in the effort to RF the structure vs the effort to reclaim it. That is really what needs to be balanced.

Truth be told, if no one shows up, I believe the structures should revert back to the original owners control naturally. Also, I feel like there needs to be an additional step (i.e. an investment in effort) before the attackers truly make sov vulnerable.

Focusing on link fit inties is really sidetracking us from the above discussion, which is something we should be having.


you can only troll an alliance if it overextended and owns a lot of space. If you don't own more than you can defend the problem doesn't exist. We already have the same situation in FW. Nobody trolls someone in their home system since it doesn't work. but backend system nobody really cares about are flipped all the time. I think nullsec might be very similar after the change. You will only want to hold as much sov as you can defend... for your own sanity.

edit: taking more sov as you can defend will still happen for sure but it will be only temporary. Like a crusade.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2047 - 2015-03-05 03:27:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Bienator II wrote:

you can only troll an alliance if it overextended and owns a lot of space. If you don't own more than you can defend the problem doesn't exist.


The way the income is structured, people have to spread themselves thin.

This must be accompanied by a nullsec income rework.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#2048 - 2015-03-05 03:29:49 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Bienator II wrote:

you can only troll an alliance if it overextended and owns a lot of space. If you don't own more than you can defend the problem doesn't exist.


The way the income is structured, people have to spread themselves thin.

This must be accompanied by a nullsec income rework.

No it doesn't.

Just ram this through and let what happens happen


Fixed quoting. ISD Ezwal.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2049 - 2015-03-05 03:30:05 UTC
Querns wrote:
It's not about the individual sov structure or command node; it's about the ability for the interceptor to, when flown by a moderately competent pilot, to choose to disengage at will should the situation become untenable, and to begin poking another sov structure outside of the reach of any ship but another interceptor.


NO STRUCTURE will be outside of reach of a defensive E-link for the people actually LIVING THERE. Sov in empty/far-flung systems will be immediately lost. Sov in or very close to every system housing live pilots during that alliance's prime time will be invulnerable to this sneaky interceptor genius.

The small alliance holding 3 or 4 systems with 30 or 50 people online doesn't care where the interceptor goes or what it E-links once it leaves their borders. It won't be hard for them to field a couple of defensive E-links within a 2 or 3 jump radius during a 4 hour window that completely negates anything the interceptor can do within their borders.

(To be fair, the LARGE alliance holding 300 or 400 systems with 3000 or 5000 people online, in-space, and spread out between all these systems ALSO won't care. Alliance size isn't relevant; having living, online pilots in the systems you own, few or many, is all that matters).

Again, all this intentional. Space that is being lived in will be trivial to defend against this kind of harassment. Space that isn't being lived in won't be. That's the basis of the mechanic.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
#2050 - 2015-03-05 03:34:50 UTC
What's CCP's position on dealing with "Trollettos"?

http://www.themittani.com/features/proposed-sov-changes-rise-trollceptor?page=0%2C1

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf

Seven Koskanaiken
Fancypants Inc
Pandemic Horde
#2051 - 2015-03-05 03:36:57 UTC
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2052 - 2015-03-05 03:37:08 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Mostlyharmlesss wrote:
If the changes goes through like they are now, I'm unironically going to take a 200 man interceptor fleet to Provi and reinforce the entire region in 4 hours.


You know, I remember this kind of rhetoric before. When the mobile siphon units were announced Goons swarmed (no pun intented) the thread with comments about how their siphons would blot out the sun, how they would siphon every moon in EVE.

And it never happened.

Ask the occupants of the south about being siphoned.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2053 - 2015-03-05 03:46:45 UTC
Mostlyharmlesss wrote:
If the changes goes through like they are now, I'm unironically going to take a 200 man interceptor fleet to Provi and reinforce the entire region in 4 hours.


Provi is the group that will benefit the most from this change.

The E-link world is a world where you don't need caps/supercaps to take and hold unattractive sov. You don't even need to win most of your PvP engagements to take and hold unattractive sov. The only requirement to take and hold unattractive sov is to be the only group that wants to live in that particular unattractive sov. The only people that seem to want to live in provi is provi. And they are pretty much the definition of a group of people actually living in their space on a daily basis.

The only thing that has kept provi alive this long is that no one took it from them and then made them pay rent, because everyone has a bit of a soft spot for provi and it wasn't worth the risk of accidentally starting a real war with someone important. Post E-links, provi will be forever protected by the fact that their space is simply worthless, and you can no longer force ANYone to pay rent for space your alliance is close to/living in.

Provi will be far safer than it's ever been under this new system.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#2054 - 2015-03-05 03:48:21 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:
Mostlyharmlesss wrote:
If the changes goes through like they are now, I'm unironically going to take a 200 man interceptor fleet to Provi and reinforce the entire region in 4 hours.


Provi is the group that will benefit the most from this change.

The E-link world is a world where you don't need caps/supercaps to take and hold unattractive sov. You don't even need to win most of your PvP engagements to take and hold unattractive sov. The only requirement to take and hold unattractive sov is to be the only group that wants to live in that particular unattractive sov. The only people that seem to want to live in provi is provi. And they are pretty much the definition of a group of people actually living in their space on a daily basis.

The only thing that has kept provi alive this long is that no one took it from them and then made them pay rent, because everyone has a bit of a soft spot for provi and it wasn't worth the risk of accidentally starting a real war with someone important. Post E-links, provi will be forever protected by the fact that their space is simply worthless, and you can no longer force ANYone to pay rent for space your alliance is close to/living in.

Provi will be far safer than it's ever been under this new system.

i guess if they are okay with not being able to dock or get anom spawns
Hairpins Blueprint
CBC Interstellar
Goonswarm Federation
#2055 - 2015-03-05 03:50:27 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
So if problems show up in discussion and playtesting we're happy to let players try to find a counter and then relatively easily step in if that counter doesn't materialize.




There is no Working way to tackle interceptors, and it's very hard to tackle Covops too.

It's hard for me to undestand way you keep the interceptos imba in this matter.

They should be allowed to do sov warfare if you can tackle this thing.

He will just leave the grid and come back when we warp off, and you can do this for ever ... :<

Thats way i think Interceptors and Covops hull should not be able to fit Sov linki thing.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2056 - 2015-03-05 03:54:33 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:
Provi will be far safer than it's ever been under this new system.


I agree 100% please implement these changes as-is so that we can all save freeport Provi
Ereilian
Doomheim
#2057 - 2015-03-05 03:56:19 UTC
A simple "fix" would to be to make this new SovLazor fittable on a specialty hull ... lets say a Command Ship. Make it an investment in effort to attack Sov rather than the usual anti-sov wormhole bears.
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2058 - 2015-03-05 04:01:13 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Bienator II wrote:

you can only troll an alliance if it overextended and owns a lot of space. If you don't own more than you can defend the problem doesn't exist.


The way the income is structured, people have to spread themselves thin.

This must be accompanied by a nullsec income rework.


Sort of. Arguably an alliance is overextended if it is one where people are friends in name only, don't fly in the same TZ, and only have corps that don't declare independence because they can't field their own supercap fleet. The moment the alliance TZ and supercaps become irrelevant to those corps, expect a wave of balkanization. Basically this will affect alliances that have overextended their loyalty, not their reach.

Even with NO immediate changes to nullsec income, this should shake things up a lot.

But I agree that long term, this needs a rework to the upper limits on nullsec system pop density levels to get truly interesting. In the short term the only effect this has on the groups people love to hate is to invalidate their slumlord rental empires. It won't really affect the core alliance groups much and the loss of rental income will be offset by the ability to wage significant portions of sov warfare with subcaps instead of caps and supers.
John Frohike
Eve Defence Force
The Bastion
#2059 - 2015-03-05 04:02:56 UTC
I LOVE EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS!
Biron Soringard
Absurdity of Abstractions
#2060 - 2015-03-05 04:03:24 UTC
1. Cannot be fitted to hulls bonused for cloaks. Blops, Strat/Astero, Recons, T3's with covop reconf subs, etc.
2. Any ship fitted with E-Links loses any bubble immunity. This applies to ceptors and nullified T3s
3. E-links cannot be equipped or un-equipped from a mobile depot, given that they require more advanced interfacing with the capsuleer.