Player Features and Ideas Discussion

So here's my idea:

CCP has built themselves into a corner with Supercapitals. The problem - and the common misconception is - that they need to be balanced in line with existing ships and in existing mechanics. A way out of this is to change the game mechanics themselves and then balance Supercapitals.

Objective:

• To make the different classes of capitals, specifically Super capitals an element of the sub cap fleet meta.
• To create a system whereby those without super capitals are able to counter super capitals effectively using fleet design and tactics
• To encourage - practically force - those with super capitals to employ support fleets when using them in engagements.
• Make it easier in future to balance ships.
• To allow lower SP players to shape the outcome of battles featuring Capitals and Super Capitals.

Part 1: Change mechanics to allow stackable effects

We already have elements of this in EVE, but the core change here is to approach the problem by allowing ships to be able to stack effects rather than apply them individually to a target vessel. At the moment what stacks and what does not is not aligned but if they were, could mean a change in how certain very large and expensive ships are used.

The easiest way to describe this proposal is to use an example (numbers are arbitrary and just an example and we assume Super Capitals lose their EWAR immunity):

A Nyx has a Sensor strength of 100
A generic multispectrum sensor jammer has a strength of 1 on an unbonused ship
You'd need 100 rifters fitted with multispectrum jammers to jam that Nyx.
Doesn't this change existing EWAR ships? No, they already have bonuses, they're just reworked to fit into this system. You might only need 10 Falcons to stop a Super capital targeting.

A Nyx could have a Warp Core Strength of 100.
A Warp Scramber has a strength of 2.
You'd need 50 Warp Scramblers to hold that Nyx in place.
I hear you say what about HICs?! There infinite point just gets a default strength of 100 or whatever it needs to be balanced at. The idea is that 100 warp scrambling Rifters could also be used.

Using this sort of mechanic, a Supers EWAR immunity is removed but they remain powerful, yet a fleet of subcaps could in theory both hold it in place and remove it's ability to do damage. In turn the supercap is required to have a subcap fleet to protect it. Warp core strength and EWAR are just a couple of examples of stacking abilities which could lead to super capitals being used with protective sub cap fleets. The added benefit here is that very low SP players become valuable. Right now in a capital or super capital engagement, low SP players are practically ignored due to the ships they're limited to flying, unless they're in a dictor.

Part 2: It would be a fair amount of work wouldn't it?
The downside is the amount of work needed to move to this scale, because you can't have one system for one set of ships and one for another - which is the current problem. Every other ship/module in EVE would need to fit into this scale but it would also add to potential diversification of fleet doctrines and more dynamic fleet battles. Many modules, skills and ships would remain exactly as they are with the exception of an additional set of balance variables and stacking effects. It would require revisiting how sensor strength/resolution works and EWAR would stack but the potential benefits possibly outweigh this. Allowing a 1000 Rifters to pin down and blind a super, knocking it's targeting range to 10cm and then slowly killing it would become possible.

It wouldn't really affect small gang fights and how those play out right now, which is important as this seems to be the one area of EVE where ship balancing appears to be working. The big question is how ECM would work. Cycle times would still be applicable but does the stacking effect remove the all or nothing method in which some elements of ECM works once two or more ships apply the same effect to a target?

Part 3: Fine tuning of Capitals
Capitals and Super Capitals still need to remain powerful however once this system is adopted they could more easily be tuned to fit in with the fleet meta. It would simply be a case of tuning variables to how strong or weak you want them vs subcapitals or other capital ships. It would be no different to balancing a ship of any other class. The core change has already taken place i.e. they're all susceptible to sub capitals if not protected. The more specialised - usually T2 - ships you can field, with higher skilled pilots, the fewer sub capitals needed to neutralise a Capital.

Outcome
With the new Sov mechanics in mind, where more smaller scale fights will take place, Supers will still have a place. Only now as a central element of sub capital fleets. They would need support from Sub capitals as they can be countered by sub capitals. Low SP players would no longer be a spare wheel in these sorts of fights and those with unsubbed space coffins could potentially get to use them more frequently.

I agree, the current changes do make them less useful. In this system they would be more useful in localised fights, which is the point.

Also, rather than try and score internet points, shooting down what could be a viable idea, how about you suggest something or build upon my proposed solution to the elephant in the room?

People are complaining about supercapitals a lot lately. The problem - and the misconception is - that people think supercapitals need to have some sort of purpose or reason to exist. A way out of this is to stop, take three steps back, look at the entire picture in a way that does not consider the time or money people have put into acquiring these ships and instead focuses on the continued health and improvement of the game and its metas as a whole.

Supercaps don't need to be relevant. They need to be irrelevant so that CCP can safely remove them from EVE or at least safely redesign them from the ground up to be completely different and not be cancer.

Death to all supers.

I did state pretty clearly that it was about aligning balancing variables, that doesn't prevent a constant shift in the meta.

Yes, I am experienced in cap warfare but the idea is to move away from the huge capital blobs and instead see more common use, across the smaller, more common fleet battles the new sov system is encouraging.

You have valid points, but I did state that further balancing to make them viable in sub cap fleets is something to be addressed and it's probably on CCP's radar. You also didn't actually suggest any solutions, which is really what is needed in this discussion. It's fine to find holes in an idea but at least provide ideas with your counterpoints.



Yes, that was mentioned in my original post. This isn't a bad thing.



So if you read what I wrote, I did say that they'd need balancing post this change. In the up coming changes they have no role in in their present state.

The loss of EWAR immunity is simply a method to have them fly with sub cap support, which is, as I wrote, stated quite clearly. This isn't a proposal for a final outline in how supercapitals should be used in future but the start of a way out of the corner CCP have built themselves into.



I totally agree with your first paragraph but Supercapitals are a thing and they will not go away, redesigning them to fit in with improving the health of the game is paramount. By forcing them to operate with sub cap fleets but also making them vulnerable to sub cap fleets is a start. Later on they could be changed into a T2 equivalent - whatever CCP do someone will get pissed.

But at the end of the day, thousands of players own them, they will not be deleted or removed. The best we can hope for is for them to be changed into a meaningful but not necessary ship.

The approach should be pragmatic and objective rather than statements about their removal, which will never happen.

On the contrary, I read quite well and simply pointed out, that I already pointed this out. Supers would need a further balance to put them into a role. I did state this, so I'm confused about who has the reading comprehension issues.

An unconcealed whine to someone who wears tin foil maybe, but as a super owner it's simply starting a meaningful discussion on how to approach how they're used in the future.

So to address your question, and I'll try and do it in a civilised manner which cannot be misconstrued as a unconcealed whine for those wearing 2 tons of bacofoil: The idea is to remove certain mechanic restricting or breaking items, replace them with parameters like all other ships, which in turn can be used to further balance supers into something usable in the future. The point is that supers in their present state cannot be balanced because they don't fit the present mechanics, so the idea is to change the mechanics so they can be balanced.

A question to you is why should supers have EWAR immunity? Why, if they lose it and then in return gain enough stats in the right areas to require vast numbers of sub caps to counter, is some sort of trade off needed?

Supers will be addressed by CCP, so instead of them going into it ham fisted like Pheobe or breaking ship balance (so variation is somewhat limited except in small gangs) in Tiercide, it's probably useful to put some options on the table for them to consider. I too feel that the current changes made by Fozzie and Rise to break up the use of capitals was poorly thought out but it's better to come at this with solutions and discussion than simply be truculent. CCP will not read your comments.

How about, before you hit 'Post', you make sure to add a solution or something constructive to this discussion instead of being pointlessly antagonistic? I realise you're trying to score internet points here but being abrasive isn't exactly helping is it?

For the sake of clarity, do you understand what someone means when they state figures are arbitrary? Where are you pulling out the 2-3 blackbirds figure? At least you are finally being constructive but still fail to get that an underlying mechanical overhaul and figures at this stage are utterly irrelevant.

How about we slaughter the viable elephant in the room, reject your dumbass proposals for what they are, and start a new game building upon what used to be Eve, where super capitals hold true to their namesake without taking sub caps into consideration?