Player Features and Ideas Discussion

x-post from my reddit thread: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2xscf9/projectiles_or_how_i_learned_to_stop_brawling_and/

TL;DR courtesy of Unisol314:
Remove EXP/KIN lock on T2 projectile ammo by adding third (and maybe 4th) T2 ammo types with EM/KIN damage.

Projectiles have been getting some love recently, but many feel it is not *quite* enough. I believe the weapons system and all of the available ammo is in a good place, but I also think the available ammo repertoire needs supplementation.

A few people in the past both on reddit and the eve-o forums have suggested implementing the unreleased ammo types for the full host of weaponary, but that really makes very little sense in many cases. The explosive laser crystals and different types of hybrid ammo are excessive.

In its current state, the unreleased projectile ammo is also broken, but it isn't difficult to fix.

The price paid in eve for fully selectable damage type ammo is reload time. Projectiles pay full price but don't get the show they're looking for.

*Autocannons*

For my examples, I'll be using faction Phased plasma as my baseline common ammo, faction Titanium Sabot as my baseline for range (no range modifier) Barrage for long range and of course Hail for short range. I will be using (S) small ammo for ease of calculation. Figures quoted are from 200mm T2s on a punisher.

The unreleased auotcannon ammo is Storm S.

*Storm S is OP as balls*

Is has the full base range available to autocannons at 7.9km, doing 86.95% of the damage Phased plasma does with Plasma's -50% optimal modifier (total damage of 13.8).

Storm does 7[EM] and 5[Therm] for a total of 12. Storm S has no tracking or range modifier in any form.

To summarise it in its current state; Storm S is has all of the benefits of faction short range ammo with none of the drawbacks.

It is faction EMP on steroids, with the added benefit of using thermal as it's secondary damage source vs EMP's kinetic.

It is well known that dealing thermal damage is the quickest route through almost all T1 hulls' base resists.

I propose changing Storm S in to a primarily EM based version of Barrage, nerfing its overall damage, and changing its secondary damage to kinetic.

It would look like this next to barrage:

Storm S (New)  |     Barrage S | Storm S (Old)
---------------|---------------|-------------
EM 6           |     EXP 6     |    EM 7
KIN 5          |     KIN 5     |   THERM 5
-25% Tracking  | -25% Tracking | N/A
+40% Falloff.  |  +40% Falloff | N/A

Shield ships and EM hole armour ships currently worry very little - almost not at all - when facing projectile ships with any decent gap between them. You might accuse me of aiming to fill a very specific gap with this ammo, and you would be right. T2 ammo is specialised by its nature, and this is an obvious gap that needs to be filled.

I think supplementing this ammo direction with a short range version could also be beneficial. Since the silly restrictions on Hail were removed it's become a really viable choice for up close anti-armour dps that requires you to commit heavily to the range and damage type you're dealing.

They used to say Hail = Fail. Well maybe Hail and Fail can be friends.
I propose a new ammo type, Fail S.

Hail S        |   Fail S
--------------|-----------
EXP 12.1      |  EM 12.1
KIN 3.3       | KIN 3.3
-50% Optimal  | -50% Optimal
-25% Falloff  | -25% Falloff
-30% Tracking | -30% Tracking

(Of course, call it something not ridiculous.)


*Artillery*

Much in the same for Arty really. The same thinking on both fronts. Honestly though, arty doesn't suffer these issues to the same extent as autocannons due to the fact that the T2 ammo for arty is hilariously **** across the board and needs a lot of work. The long range variant takes a -75% tracking speed hit which makes it almost completely unusable aside from cloaky loki cyno popping MLG montages, and the situations in which the close range variant becomes useful do not lend themselves well to 10 second reload times. (Getting tackled by something small, usually.) I suggest Tremor takes a 50% tracking hit and the reload time on quake is modified to 7 seconds, but that's a whole different thing so we'll leave it for now and focus on what we have.

Currently the unreleased ammo type for arty is Shock S.
*Shock S is also OP as balls.*

It also does 86.95% of faction Phased plasma's damage and pays a paltry -15% optimal range in return for it's high damage a hugely varied damage types. Shock S is 5[EM] 5[THERM] 2[EXP].
Crazy strong.

Just like with Storm S the heavy secondary damage type of thermal needs to go to remain balanced against T1 hull resists.

Shock S (New)  |   Tremor S  | Shock S (Old)
---------------|-------------|-------------
EM 5           |     EXP 5   |   EM 5
KIN 3          |    KIN 3    |   THERM 5
+80% Optimal   | +80% Optimal|  EXP 2
-75% Tracking  |-75% Tracking| -15% Optimal

While we're at it, allow me to suggest the close range T2 arty ammo variant, Surge (S).

Quake S       |    Surge S
--------------|-------------
EXP 9         |    EM 9
KIN 5         |    KIN 5
-75% Optimal  |  -75% Optimal
+25% Tracking | +25% Tracking

Overall, I'm far more concerned about the long range EM variants than my fanciful short range versions. I think it is important autocannons and artillery become more competitive versus shield ships at range.

So you didn't actually read through it then? Why even comment?

• Unreleased ammo = ammo that has not been released.
• There is no long or short range T2 EM ammo.
• The unreleased ammo is EM but is also currently overpowered and doesn't fit the game.
• I modified the unreleased ammo to fit the game and very, very clearly laid out what changes I made and why.

Honey, you should try out small beam lasers.

Those do EM and some thermal damage at long or not so long range on your Punisher.

Fixed table formatting.



No, it isn't. Do you know what barrage is for? It's a long range ammo type, with explosive damage as primary. There is no long range ANY other type autocannon ammo. A long range EM ammo for autocannons and / or artillery would be a massive, massive change to the weapons system and the ships that use them. EMP isn't even close to comparable.



Maybe I didn't make it clear, but I used the punisher hull as a perfect example of an unbonused hull. The point of using an unbonused hull is to give a middle ground look at the weapons system an ammo. Unless you're being obtuse on purpose and implying I should beam fit cynabals and thrashers. I've done the latter, and fun as it was it was abysmal.

The problem with projectiles is complex, and it requires time to lay out the issues and possible solutions. I don't know where you got the idea that you should have a full understanding of a thousand words by reading the first hundred and fifty, but it isn't possible.

If you had been a tad less lazy and continued reading, you would find links to the unreleased ammo taken from the game's database. There are many, many items in the games code that are not available or searchable in game, and this is just a few of them. I will debate the argument I laid out in my original post with you, but I'd rather not have to bicker with people who haven't read it.

Give it a look. You might like it :)



Barrage isn't for arty?

Can't tell if troll or idiot. I'm going to flip coins all day and change my mind every few seconds.

Heads.

*Ping...*

Eh. Like I said, it was an x-post from reddit. I guess the format is different. I wrote it to discuss the idea, not to actually propose it. You make a fair point. I'll put the TL;DR at the start.

+1 more choices for t2 ammo us always good .
Since u do get 10 sec reload time when switching the ammo time kinda makes u think twice .

This wouldn't be a bad thing but projectiles problem is that there's too many better options at the ranges it should excel at. In theory it has enough ammo types to fill a variety of holes but where does it sit between MF/Anti > Null > Scorch > Rails/Beams?

If you were to redo them from scratch they could probably do with a different falloff mechanic from the other turrets, a less sharp dropoff to start with so it could reliably be expected to offer ~ x% of its theoretical dps throughout a decent chunk of its falloff giving a wide viable engagement range. A balance between the advantages of turrets and missiles if you like.

As is the choices are pretty much buff tracking (oppressive), fiddle with optimal/falloff (becomes hybrids) or give it more damage types (feh). None are massively appealing, although I suppose if ACs basically became EM/Exp Blasters it wouldn't be the end of the world.

There is already projectile ammo without explosive, so I'm not suggesting the "lore" or whatever changes to suit my suggestion. There are also several projectile ammos with not three but two damage types.

This has nothing to do with missiles or attempting to impede on them, this is about giving the only other selectable damage type weapon in the game the flexability it deserves in order to be competitive across the field.