These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next pageLast page
 

CSM - The what?

Author
Jenshae Chiroptera
#1 - 2015-03-03 02:22:11 UTC
I have been going around High Sec and a fair bit of Low Sec, trying to reach that huge pool of voters. Yes, there are heaps of apathy but I am finding that so much of my time is being spent explaining what CSM is.

Arrow There are loads and loads of people who have not heard of CSM.

(I might as well be explaining the mating rituals of fish found only in Malawi.) P

When it comes down to effort and effect, then CCP and large alliances, particularly in Null Sec, hold all the cards:
- The mailing, forums and such are all in place for large alliances, as they are war ready.
- CCP could have CSM on the launcher during the whole voting period and like a MoTD in every Local chat.

Going through this experience of being a CSM candidate and trying to reach out to the wider EVE population, represent a full cross section; I can see why there are so few CSM members from Low Sec and High Sec.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#2 - 2015-03-03 02:34:11 UTC
Christian Science Monitor?
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#3 - 2015-03-03 02:34:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
For the vast majority of people that play this game, it's just a casual thing. Space is not serious business.

Why would they care about the CSM?
Carmen Electra
AlcoDOTTE
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#4 - 2015-03-03 02:38:38 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
For the vast majority of people that play this game, it's just a casual thing. Space is not serious business.

Why would they care about the CSM?

It's hard enough to get people to vote IRL
Whittorical Quandary
The Asteroid is Depleted
#5 - 2015-03-03 02:43:11 UTC
Might be cool if the old video projector things near some of the stargates would have CSM info on them.

Or a launcher or notification feed item that links to CSM election info (if there wasn't one already)

"The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you never know if they are genuine."

— Abraham Lincoln

Jenshae Chiroptera
#6 - 2015-03-03 04:04:17 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
For the vast majority of people that play this game, it's just a casual thing. Space is not serious business.
Why would they care about the CSM?
Talking with a group tonight, mentioned upcoming Tengu changes.
"What?! Nnooooo! I am going to quit! They nerfed missiles! They can't take my "mission win ship!" How do I stop them doing this?"

Just the example of, "Why," they might want to care from tonight. Blink

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Raiz Nhell
PeregrineXII
#7 - 2015-03-03 04:31:03 UTC
Now I have an urge to investigate the aquatic life of Malawi, and their intimate habits...

There is no such thing as a fair fight...

If your fighting fair you have automatically put yourself at a disadvantage.

Jenshae Chiroptera
#8 - 2015-03-03 04:58:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Raiz Nhell wrote:
Now I have an urge to investigate the aquatic life of Malawi, and their intimate habits...
That's right, just rub it in and how I am better at accidentally than on purpose! Roll

Lol
D J Miller wrote:
The great lakes of Africa contain one of the most remarkable known examples of rapid evolution and speciation of a vertebrate group. The three major lakes - Lake Victoria, Lake Malawi and Lake Tanganyika - each contain a unique radiation of fish belonging to the family Cichlidae. This has produced species 'flocks' that are unique to each lake in species numbers and diversity. At present most of the cichlid species in Lake Victoria are facing extinction as a result of the introduction of an exotic fish species. There are many other examples of introductions or invasions of non-native fish that have had severe effects on the native fish populations and regional economics. These examples should provide a clear warning against the proposed introductions of exotic fish into Lake Malawi.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#9 - 2015-03-03 05:45:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Pok Nibin
It's towering stupidity on somebody's part to look at the actual conditions of the "average" gamer in EVE and claim the idea that a viable, representative election could occur to create a committee representing this playerbase to influence the direction of this game is a valid one. The idea is ridiculous. Yet, here we are. This is why it's easier to define it as a public relations gimmick, and to assume there is no intention of it really having an effect - but is here just to keep us at bay by claiming we are representing ourselves in some weird way.

Getting a majority of MMO players to participate in the game's forum, across the board, is impossible. I've actively participated in creating and maintaining such community websites in three (unnamed) major games, and the average of active participants with a forum is always the same - with the same "sorts" of people doing the participating. I guess the ones who don't participate can blame themselves for not doing so, but how this influences game development over time and the community as a whole makes such an indictment empty words.

There's no way you're going to get me to believe CCP is oblivious of this. If they were intent upon creating this community, the steps to be taken to do so are no secret. That they aren't taking such steps speaks volumes as to their intent. What this does is reduces the CSM election to the equivilent of electing the homecoming queen and court. It's relevant to certain sorts of people, but is essentially insubstantial.

Voting will not change this. That you are here (claiming this post is TL;DR) puts you in a minority
with regard to this playerbase.

It doesn't take a Weatherman to tell which way the wind blows.

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.

Jenshae Chiroptera
#10 - 2015-03-03 06:00:22 UTC
Pok Nibin wrote:
... There's no way you're going to get me to believe CCP is oblivious of this. If they were intent upon creating this community, the steps to be taken to do so are no secret. That they aren't taking such steps speaks volumes as to their intent. What this does is reduces the CSM election to the equivilent of electing the homecoming queen and court. It's relevant to certain sorts of people, but is essentially insubstantial ...
Indeed. I am here with the experience to say how it is a farce.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#11 - 2015-03-03 06:33:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
I have been going around High Sec and a fair bit of Low Sec, trying to reach that huge pool of voters. Yes, there are heaps of apathy but I am finding that so much of my time is being spent explaining what CSM is.

Arrow There are loads and loads of people who have not heard of CSM.

(I might as well be explaining the mating rituals of fish found only in Malawi.) P

When it comes down to effort and effect, then CCP and large alliances, particularly in Null Sec, hold all the cards:
- The mailing, forums and such are all in place for large alliances, as they are war ready.
- CCP could have CSM on the launcher during the whole voting period and like a MoTD in every Local chat.

Going through this experience of being a CSM candidate and trying to reach out to the wider EVE population, represent a full cross section; I can see why there are so few CSM members from Low Sec and High Sec.




During the Hulkageddon years I was still running into miners who never heard of it.

I would say this was the result of using banner ads on news websites. You see people really don't read the news, just the headlines (we call them "low information voters"). So if there's an Eve banner on those news websites, now you have low information players.

If this game was being heavily advertised on say engineering websites, we'd have a lot of guys running EFT in their heads (and being proud of it). There would be no more calculator wars. No need for calculators at that point. Though the older players would be breaking out their slide rules to verify DPS then everybody's in trouble.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Jenshae Chiroptera
#12 - 2015-03-03 06:38:18 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
If this game was being heavily advertised on say engineering websites, we'd have a lot of guys running EFT in their heads (and being proud of it). There would be no more calculator wars. No need for them. Though the older players would be breaking out their slide rules to verify then everybody's in trouble.
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
The way that EVE has plateaued and considering the learing curve, I think the sort of people drawn to EVE are the sort drawn to Linux. I really feel it would be important to try get EVE on Ubuntu's software centre listing and make some song and dance about it.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#13 - 2015-03-03 07:13:02 UTC
Carmen Electra wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
For the vast majority of people that play this game, it's just a casual thing. Space is not serious business.

Why would they care about the CSM?

It's hard enough to get people to vote IRL


The disinterest flows because to them the only winning move is to be dead.

Evolution however allows the powerful to keep them going through emotional manipulation and coercion.
Nami Kumamato
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2015-03-03 09:25:06 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Carmen Electra wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
For the vast majority of people that play this game, it's just a casual thing. Space is not serious business.

Why would they care about the CSM?

It's hard enough to get people to vote IRL


The disinterest flows because to them the only winning move is to be dead.

Evolution however allows the powerful to keep them going through emotional manipulation and coercion.


You brained my damage...

Fornicate The Constabulary !

Serene Repose
#15 - 2015-03-03 10:19:32 UTC
If you are running for CSM it's kind of hard to take the side that the CSM is just corporate window dressing. Cool

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

BrundleMeth
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2015-03-03 11:16:38 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
For the vast majority of people that play this game, it's just a casual thing. Space is not serious business.
Why would they care about the CSM?
Talking with a group tonight, mentioned upcoming Tengu changes.
"What?! Nnooooo! I am going to quit! They nerfed missiles! They can't take my "mission win ship!" How do I stop them doing this?"

Just the example of, "Why," they might want to care from tonight. Blink
And what? Is the CSM going to stop CCP from nerfing Tengus? Are they even going to try? Maybe every one on the CSM wants to see Tengus nerfed...
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2015-03-03 12:31:55 UTC
BrundleMeth wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
For the vast majority of people that play this game, it's just a casual thing. Space is not serious business.
Why would they care about the CSM?
Talking with a group tonight, mentioned upcoming Tengu changes.
"What?! Nnooooo! I am going to quit! They nerfed missiles! They can't take my "mission win ship!" How do I stop them doing this?"

Just the example of, "Why," they might want to care from tonight. Blink
And what? Is the CSM going to stop CCP from nerfing Tengus? Are they even going to try? Maybe every one on the CSM wants to see Tengus nerfed...

I imagine the day after the nerf there is going to be a hilarious increase in the number of Tengus exploding in missions as the oblivious suddenly find a chunk of their tank missing Big smile

Personally, I have absolutely no problem with people who are not engaged in the larger game from being oblivious to the CSM process. Generally speaking, someone who is fixated on only a small corner of the game, and either doesn't appreciate, or can't comprehend the larger ecosystem of the game, and the interconnected nature of each of its elements, is not someone I want to have any say in the direction of the game, as they will have no appreciation for anything beyond "buff my chosen playstyle", and their choice of candidates are more likely to be ones with unreasonable up-in-the-clouds theories of how to change the game, rather than a more grounded attitude.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#18 - 2015-03-03 13:25:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Serene Repose wrote:
If you are running for CSM it's kind of hard to take the side that the CSM is just corporate window dressing. Cool


It's corporate window dressing if he doesn't win, it's a vital community resource if he does. The OP (knowing his chances of being elected are next to non-existent) is setting the mental stage to be able to proclaim "it's all a farce, they don't even tell the high sec majority what's going on!" when the inevitable result happens.

Such people always use the 'silent majority' argument when trying to rationalize why they aren't getting what they want. Ole Dinsdale was a master of that, because such folks need to believe the fantasy that "a lot of people think like me and are being oppressed by whitey the system". Mainly because believing the reality of the situation ie "I am a fringe lunatic and the truth is that even people who live in high sec like me reject what I believe" is too heart wrenching to even contemplate Twisted


The problem with the CSM isn't CCP or the CSM, it's the unrealistic expectations of unrealistic EVE players that is the problem. The CSM is the video game version of a Civilian Review Board for a Police Department. It exists as a 'warning' body to be able to tell CCP "hey dudes, don't do a T20 or monoclegate again". Over time mission creep may have given the CSM a bit of 'advocacy panel feel", but it doesn't change what the purpose of the group is. And it doesn't change the group's power (which is effectively zero).

The OP seems to believe that being elected to the CSM means CCP has to do what he wants, and that's the irony here, he makes a thread proclaiming that people don't know what the CSM is when he demonstrates a completely incorrect idea of what the CSM is lol.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#19 - 2015-03-03 14:21:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Jenn aSide wrote:
The OP (knowing his chances of being elected are next to non-existent)
... the 'silent majority' argument ...
To OP seems to believe that being elected to the CSM means CCP has to do what he wants, ...
Ugh, you do love to prattle on and waste people's time reading what you have to say. Ugh

Right, so cutting to your main points:
1) I have no idea, apparently my coalition leader sent out mail with Core, Vaari and myself. I haven't seen it. Others have said their alliances are voting for me. Feedback is very erratic.
2) I have accomplished a great deal by simply running, people are talking about topics I care about. If there is a shift in mentality or not; at least I can say that I made the effort.
3) Do you even play EVE? Have you travelled around Low Sec or through Null? Goons can get most of their slate elected, have 2x Goons on the current CSM. That is obviously due to a lack of voting. 49K~ let us say 50 000 votes were the highest out of 500 000 active accounts, only 10% have ever voted at a time.
4) At best CSM might be used for feedback, in all likelihood from what I have been reading and hearing it is a group that is largely ignored and dragged out to be displayed for publicity reasons.

Why do I bother responding to Jenn aSide? There are other people reading the forums, lurkers who actually do think like him.
BrundleMeth wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

Just the example of, "Why," they might want to care from tonight. Blink
And what? Is the CSM going to stop CCP from nerfing Tengus? Are they even going to try? Maybe every one on the CSM wants to see Tengus nerfed...
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

For gun boats, you would look at potential damage vs tank. Role balancing becomes more tricky and not even that is right. Tengus have the most EHP with resists, speed and relatively low signature, combined with rails and long range.

Tengu: 200K eHP, 233mm, 632m/s, 1359 volley, 412 DPS, 36 000m optimal with anti-matter
Loki: 123K eHP, 189mm, 751 m/s, 1994 volley, 260 DPS, 19 000 optimal with EMP

So, let us look at the Loki then. The Tengu has 30% less volley but hardly a penalty against the Loki that wants to keep you far away so you can not web it .... but needs to come closer with their longest range weapon.

That is just two ships designed as closely as possible to each other. Not even comparing the Tengu against other gun ships.

So, who does understand balancing then? I don't think CCP does. P
I am fully aware of how Tengus are broken. I had an immediate example of why they would care. It is the job of the CSM to listen, know why people are complaining and take that to CCP. I can add to this feedback why I agree with CCP but it would be my job to make the aware of some complaints.
Far better if they diffuse and explain before people start popping in their fail fits and going on a mad rampage.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Memphis Baas
#20 - 2015-03-03 14:37:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
So, if they vote for some CSM members because they're now aware of the Tengu changes, do they have any guarantee that the CSM will be able to do anything to reverse the Tengu changes, as they want?

Because that's why the majority doesn't care. CSM does some stuff, but not that much.

And as far as the large alliances having control over the CSM, I was wondering why CCP doesn't reward more directly the people who create content for them and promote the game. For example, Brave Newbies is probably responsible for a lot of the renewed interest in this game that we're seeing; they came out of nowhere and accomplished something newsworthy. CCP should give them a guaranteed seat, or some official communication channel and listen to them. For a year at least.

Large alliances tend to actually fuel interest in this game. IMO, in lieu of guaranteed CSM seats, I'm ok with them being able to control the elections.
123Next pageLast page