These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Warfare & Tactics

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Changing FW plexing fleet compositions
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Moglarr
Operation Meatshield
#101 - 2015-02-27 21:36:44 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
We'll see how things play out I guess - especially considering we still have to keep CalMil in check while we do it.


No you don't.

Really, we wont mind.

Operation Meatshield! GETUP and fight!
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#102 - 2015-02-28 01:33:27 UTC
Moglarr wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
We'll see how things play out I guess - especially considering we still have to keep CalMil in check while we do it.

No you don't.

Really, we wont mind.

Oh come on, you don't really want us to make it easy on you, do you?

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Moglarr
Operation Meatshield
#103 - 2015-02-28 01:38:34 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Moglarr wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
We'll see how things play out I guess - especially considering we still have to keep CalMil in check while we do it.

No you don't.

Really, we wont mind.

Oh come on, you don't really want us to make it easy on you, do you?



I am quite neutral in relation to what you and your frothing hordes get up to, in truth.

Did you know that we are recruiting?

Operation Meatshield! GETUP and fight!
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#104 - 2015-02-28 02:11:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Veskrashen wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
"Changing VP payouts to fall directly in line with the time it takes to complete a plex would be a good change though and would address the current problem of novices and smalls yielding faster progress than the meds and larges."

This seems like a good compromise position, and has the added benefit of making sense.

Yeah, it makes sense, to a point. It would make Novices worth about 10 VP, Smalls at 15 VP, and Medium / Large at 20 VP each. This would somewhat even out the imbalance that can come from focusing on defending the smaller plexes to gain the VP advantage.

On the other hand, it doesn't do much to force people to ship up any higher than Cruisers, which was the stated intent. It also significantly buffs defensive plexing - defenders don't have to shoot the NPC and generally deplex the larger plexes first for the higher LP payout - which means lower contested percentages on average throughout the WZ. Finally, it can definitely lead to situations where the folks willing to ship into HACs with T2 Logi just get to steamroll systems without any viable counter.

Having all plexes grant the same VP forces us to be more nimble in our fleet compositions, and allows entities who don't want to go big to have a way to delay and counter the progress of larger, more powerful groups. Eha would likely not still be in Gallente hands if TEST had just been able to run cruiser blobs all day to lock us out.


No one established that the motive to ship up was a good one.

No one justified the current advantage of deplexing alts running novices and smalls as opposed to meds and larges.
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#105 - 2015-02-28 10:35:40 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Aiyshimin wrote:
You're not thinking this straight- you say that people don't fly big ships because there's no reason to, but that reason is exactly what people are suggesting.

The problem is that what is being proposed is adding more plexes with gates that accomodate larger ships. That's not a reason to use BC/BS, unless there's something in those plexes that requires the use of ships that big. In addition, forcing the use of larger ships via game mechanic has incredible knock-on effects due to sustainability. Unlike nullbears and piwats, we don't just PvP on occassion for a few hour long fleet - we're fighting constantly. That means we go through hulls like candy, especially in system pushes. You're ignoring the logistical burdens and the impacts on WZ control that come with making larger plexes more valuable.

Quote:
And furthermore it's not an accident that FW lowsec is about small ships- it's direct result of the existence of novice and small plexes- you have to fly a frigate if you want fights, mechanics are forcing people to fly ships that can get to the targets.

However, like mentioned earlier in this thread, BCs are also **** and they wouldn't be used in BC plexes over cruisers, they simply don't bring anything to the table and would just get raped by OP **** like Orthuses.

FW is about small ships because it's the one area of EVE where you can actually be effective in small ships on a regular basis. There's no special snowflake scenario that has to happen for your T1 frigate to be effective. You're free to roam and fight in BS/BC/HAC/T3 all you want, and you will get fights. But you're not required to do so in order to be competitive in the WZ - and that's a very very good thing indeed.

Not everyone wants to play a game where the price of admission is a Command Ship / T3 / BS. Let us have the game we love and go back to nullbearing.


I was in QCATs when we competed with you for the #1 killing corp title in the game, during TEST fw incursion. I understand the logistic aspect and I love frigate pvp, but I still maintain that the real reason for all FU lowsec being about frigates was caused by introduction of size-based plexes. You can't get a BC or BS in most plexes, which means you miss out on most of the fights. You are not free to roam in larger ships, you are required to fly frigates to be competitive. Tbh I'd like to see all ship classes viable options in there, and not one ship superior over anything else.
Idame Isqua
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2015-02-28 11:33:58 UTC
Stalence wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:


Novice = 20VP
Small = 20VP
Medium = 20VP
Large = 20VP

= total of 80VP

My proposal;

Novice = 10VP
Small = 15VP
Medium = 20VP
Large = 35VP

= total of 80VP

No changes to timers or LP payout is required.

This does 2 things. It slightly reduces the impact of low SP alts on occupancy. It also means the side that controls the larger plexes can make progress against a side that will not ship up past corms. Progress also reflects time and risk spend inside plexes.


I am 100% on board with this idea. How do we actually make this happen?



I think this would work out well
don't really think anyone sensible thinks having ISK and SP should give you a significant FW advantage
id rather mine rocks than fly bc and bs
but having a few zero skill deplexing alts shouldnt be a win button either

Don't overcomplicate things flying big ships isn't actually that fun, unless you think curb stopping 5 cruisers in 10 navy megas is fun?

And lets face it novices being the best source of LP is unbalanced
Risk reward etc should mean larges pay out more and maybe add more vp too
however we don't want to make afk deplexing easier do we

IDK but remove all FW missions please!




Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2015-02-28 15:26:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Andre Vauban
Aiyshimin wrote:


I was in QCATs when we competed with you for the #1 killing corp title in the game, during TEST fw incursion. I understand the logistic aspect and I love frigate pvp, but I still maintain that the real reason for all FU lowsec being about frigates was caused by introduction of size-based plexes. You can't get a BC or BS in most plexes, which means you miss out on most of the fights. You are not free to roam in larger ships, you are required to fly frigates to be competitive. Tbh I'd like to see all ship classes viable options in there, and not one ship superior over anything else.


But I think the point of FW is too keep a place in lowsec where smal ship pvp exists. There is plenty of activity in lowsec for large ship pvp game play (just look at the non-FW lowsec pirates). The play style is there for those than want to partake in it. However, I think forcing that play style into FW is the wrong way to do it. If there truly isn't enough content in lowsec for larger hulls, then we can talk about ways CCP can add it but that content should be done outside FW and include the pirates. BTW, Roime(you sound like him)?

.
Epikurus
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#108 - 2015-02-28 15:41:47 UTC
Idame Isqua wrote:

And lets face it novices being the best source of LP is unbalanced
Risk reward etc should mean larges pay out more and maybe add more vp too





Larges already pay out far more LP. It's only on the VP front that the plexes are all the same.