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[Scylla] Medium Railguns

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Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#61 - 2015-02-28 03:25:49 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Forgot to say something.

Medium rails were one of the few systems that only needed a bit of a tweak; and that is exactly what they got. Looks good.


Oh good now they can fix the heavy missile weapon system by giving it some more application. Explosion velocity please. Least offensive balance change you can do.

As for medium rails themselves I haven't use them since I ran L3's in a ferox. Years ago.
Lug Muad'Dib
Funk'in Hole
#62 - 2015-02-28 09:45:57 UTC
Dual 150 are so OP..

Isn't only some 250mm plateform that are problematic ?

CCP Rise wrote:


There are of course many contributing factors to the popularity of those ships, but railguns are simply the simplest angle of attack for us when it comes to having a small impact on all of them at once.



does it mean i'm lazy so i take the easy way ?!? Lol
Aiyshimin
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#63 - 2015-02-28 10:14:35 UTC
Sven Viko VIkolander wrote:
The problem with this change is that it will essentially kill numerous medium rail platforms that are not widely used, but still have certain roles while solo/smallgang/fleet (such as: rail thorax, rail deimos, rail vigilant rail exeq navy issue, and even the rail moa and rail eagles which are just barely viable and even then because BNI fleets are generally SP limited, so cannot use tengus etc.). Yet the change is probably not good enough to kill the rail tengu fleet meta as people will still just bring more, or only undock if they have 7%+ more people post-nerf.

So basically what this change will accomplish is: it will virtually kill about a dozen medium rail platforms, while only moderately reducing the effectiveness of the rail tengu (a reduction that can be fixed by bringing more people in the fleet).


I love my rail ENI to bits, but I'm also willing to admit that with the current rail dps there is very little reason to fit blasters on anything anymore. All Proteuses on TQ have been 250mm fit since the buff, and so are Vigilant, two of the most iconic blaster platforms have become rail platforms.

I also enjoy rails on Phobos and Lach, but the dps really just is a bit too much. I hope this 7.5% isn't too much, and they still remain viable options.

However, it is also true that Tengu being stupidly OP as a hull has already resulted in the nerf of two weapon systems. Perhaps it is time to take a deeper look at Tengu itself instead of skirting around the problem. The tanking buff certainly does not solve the issue, it should be nerfed instead.
Discomanco
We pooped on your lawn
#64 - 2015-02-28 10:16:26 UTC
Lug Muad'Dib wrote:
Dual 150 are so OP..

Isn't only some 250mm plateform that are problematic ?

CCP Rise wrote:


There are of course many contributing factors to the popularity of those ships, but railguns are simply the simplest angle of attack for us when it comes to having a small impact on all of them at once.



does it mean i'm lazy so i take the easy way ?!? Lol

Not even sure it's only some platforms. I tried with Heavy Neutron vs 250mm Rail on a Vaga, and they are dangerously close in DPS.
Vaga;
5 Heavy Neutron T2, Fed Navy Antimatter
4 Magstabs T2
446 DPS, 2.25+6.25

Vaga;
5 250mm Railgun T2, Fed Navy Antimatter
4 Magstabs T2
409 DPS, 18+15

37 DPS vs 24.5km still seems off Big smile (considering it's an unbonused hull)
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#65 - 2015-02-28 10:46:28 UTC
All types is perhaps a little heavy - Do Dual 150s really need a nerf?
Idame Isqua
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2015-02-28 10:51:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Idame Isqua
Nivin Sajjad wrote:
CCP wrote:
Shout-out here to CSM member mynnna for a great internal discussion on this topic. He raised the point that if you look at these weapon systems on their own, rather than comparing the ships using them, they look very balanced. It would follow then that the problem is more about Tengu, Eagle and Vulture than about rails.

So far so good.

CCP wrote:

However, we can never look at weapon systems or ships without taking the other into consideration.The relationship between cap use of energy weapons and ships with cap use bonuses for energy weapons is another good example where trying to look at one without the other causes problems. We are therefore happy to consider balancing via the weapons or the ships depending on which fits the situation best. In this case, we are happy to use rails as the avenue because it is much simpler for us to design and you to adjust to.

I'm going to take that "however" to mean "mynnna is correct in this instance, however...", in which case the followup reasoning actually contradicts CCP's own proposed actions.

This is what the devblog line of reasoning looks like to me:

  • Certain medium rail using ships are unbalanced.
  • This unbalance is caused by a combination of weapon stats and ship bonuses, and any balance proposal should consider both.
  • We are therefore happy to muck around with the performance of every single medium rail using ship in the game, regardless of how their particular bonuses interact with the weapon system.
  • This is because a de facto change to every single medium rail using ship in the game is easier to adjust to, compared to a change to only 3 troublesome ship types.


Hopefully you can see how this makes no sense.


Quote2:
"Not even sure it's only some platforms. I tried with Heavy Neutron vs 250mm Rail on a Vaga, and they are dangerously close in DPS.
Vaga;
5 Heavy Neutron T2, Fed Navy Antimatter
4 Magstabs T2
446 DPS, 2.25+6.25

Vaga;
5 250mm Railgun T2, Fed Navy Antimatter
4 Magstabs T2
409 DPS, 18+15"

If CCP understands the game as little as you do god help us!

CCPlease
Smurfette Zoohl
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2015-02-28 11:23:45 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
Forgot to say something.

Medium rails were one of the few systems that only needed a bit of a tweak; and that is exactly what they got. Looks good.


Oh good now they can fix the heavy missile weapon system by giving it some more application. Explosion velocity please. Least offensive balance change you can do.

As for medium rails themselves I haven't use them since I ran L3's in a ferox. Years ago.

Yea missiles could use a bit of loving
Arinola Pendoler
Doomheim
#68 - 2015-02-28 11:38:45 UTC
Preciselly 250 medium railguns is what I use to PVE and get some ISK... I finished to get the skill a couple of weeks ago... Bad luck... Im nerfed :( ¿Maybe there is a solution for PVP that doesnt affect my PVE ship? Just asking, I know its complicated stuff...
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#69 - 2015-02-28 13:36:34 UTC
Arinola Pendoler wrote:
Preciselly 250 medium railguns is what I use to PVE and get some ISK... I finished to get the skill a couple of weeks ago... Bad luck... Im nerfed :( ¿Maybe there is a solution for PVP that doesnt affect my PVE ship? Just asking, I know its complicated stuff...

Every ship is a PvP ship.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Arinola Pendoler
Doomheim
#70 - 2015-02-28 15:05:33 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Arinola Pendoler wrote:
Preciselly 250 medium railguns is what I use to PVE and get some ISK... I finished to get the skill a couple of weeks ago... Bad luck... Im nerfed :( ¿Maybe there is a solution for PVP that doesnt affect my PVE ship? Just asking, I know its complicated stuff...

Every ship is a PvP ship.


Touché....

But still, for those that use medium railguns for pve and are going to be nerfed like me, maybe a compensation for PVE could be an increase of the ammo capacity to reduce the time reloading the guns... Its just an idea from a noob like me, who reached medium railguns V recently ;)
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2015-02-28 17:10:38 UTC
Confirming even post nerf these are going to be better than the old railguns.
And there were a lot of us who used them for pve before there initial buff.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#72 - 2015-02-28 19:25:46 UTC
[Gnosis, Railguns 250]

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]

[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]

250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
[Empty High slot]

[Empty Rig slot]
[Empty Rig slot]
[Empty Rig slot]

Medium Railguns, Tech 1 Short Range Ammo, 3 DPS mods, All 5 Skills
419 DPS


[Gnosis, Lasers]

Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]

[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
[Empty High slot]

[Empty Rig slot]
[Empty Rig slot]
[Empty Rig slot]

Medium Pulse Lasers, Tech 1 Short Range Ammo, 3 DPS mods, All 5 Skills
373 DPS

Would anyone else like to argue that the problem is with a few specific ships? Long range guns are putting out more RAW dps then short range guns. Something is obviously wrong.

Nerf is justified. All hail the nerf.

Overhaul Dscan!
O2 jayjay
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2015-02-28 23:17:10 UTC  |  Edited by: O2 jayjay
I think the 7.5% should apply to cal ships only and the Proteus s getting Nerf. Don't need to mess with the gallente ships or you will break rails for them again.

Also people dont understand that 250 track like crap. DPS doesnt matter when you cant apply them. Blaster have decent tracking but are made for brawling.
Alexis Nightwish
#74 - 2015-02-28 23:49:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexis Nightwish
Ines Tegator wrote:
[Gnosis, Railguns 250]

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]

[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]

250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
[Empty High slot]

[Empty Rig slot]
[Empty Rig slot]
[Empty Rig slot]

Medium Railguns, Tech 1 Short Range Ammo, 3 DPS mods, All 5 Skills
419 DPS


[Gnosis, Lasers]

Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]

[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
[Empty High slot]

[Empty Rig slot]
[Empty Rig slot]
[Empty Rig slot]

Medium Pulse Lasers, Tech 1 Short Range Ammo, 3 DPS mods, All 5 Skills
373 DPS

Would anyone else like to argue that the problem is with a few specific ships? Long range guns are putting out more RAW dps then short range guns. Something is obviously wrong.

Nerf is justified. All hail the nerf.


Ines Tegator, that's not the full story.

[Gnosis, Dual 150mm Rail]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Dual 150mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
Dual 150mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
Dual 150mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
Dual 150mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
Dual 150mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M

368 DPS

[Gnosis, Dual 200mm Rail]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

200mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M

388 DPS

[Gnosis, Quad Light Beam]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Quad Light Beam Laser II, Multifrequency M
Quad Light Beam Laser II, Multifrequency M
Quad Light Beam Laser II, Multifrequency M
Quad Light Beam Laser II, Multifrequency M
Quad Light Beam Laser II, Multifrequency M

389 DPS

[Gnosis, Focused Medium Beam]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Multifrequency M

340 DPS

SUMMARY:
419 DPS: 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
373 DPS: Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M

388 DPS: 200mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
340 DPS: Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Multifrequency M

368 DPS: Dual 150mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
389 DPS: Quad Light Beam Laser II, Multifrequency M


CCP, please don't apply this nerf to the Dual 150s. They aren't broken like 200s and 250s are.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Specia1 K
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#75 - 2015-02-28 23:53:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Specia1 K
Ines Tegator wrote:
[Gnosis, Railguns 250]

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]

[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]

250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
[Empty High slot]

[Empty Rig slot]
[Empty Rig slot]
[Empty Rig slot]

Medium Railguns, Tech 1 Short Range Ammo, 3 DPS mods, All 5 Skills
419 DPS


[Gnosis, Lasers]

Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]

[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
[Empty High slot]

[Empty Rig slot]
[Empty Rig slot]
[Empty Rig slot]

Medium Pulse Lasers, Tech 1 Short Range Ammo, 3 DPS mods, All 5 Skills
373 DPS

Would anyone else like to argue that the problem is with a few specific ships? Long range guns are putting out more RAW dps then short range guns. Something is obviously wrong.

Nerf is justified. All hail the nerf.


Apples to apples please:

[Gnosis,Gnosis]
5x Heavy Beam Laser II (Multifrequency M)
3x Heat Sink II

All skills to 5,
408dps.
tracking: 0.037125 (vs 0.025625 for rails)

edit:
While at it, look at droneboat too:

[Gnosis, gnosis]
3x Drone Damage Amplifier II
5x Hammerhead II

All skills to 5,
396dps

Champion of the Knights of the General Discussion

Thunderdome
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2015-03-01 00:09:38 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Rails still do more damage at longer ranges though. (15+10 vs 18+15)

Lasers also use more than triple the cap per shot. (16gj vs 5.25gj). Rof not significantly out at lasers doing 4.32 vs rails @3.9 (no dps mods here)

There may be an element of rounding here, it's from a phone fitting tool.
Loken Grimsward
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2015-03-01 09:12:53 UTC
I dont see a good reason to nerf railguns. If your intention is to change the meta so pilots are not exclusively flying Ishtars with sentries and Tengu with rail guns wouldn't it be better to just nerf the hulls? Nerfing the weapon systems also nerfs every other ship that can use that weapon system. Doesn't sound like it will balance anthing at all to be honest.
Arinola Pendoler
Doomheim
#78 - 2015-03-01 09:28:38 UTC
Loken Grimsward wrote:
I dont see a good reason to nerf railguns. If your intention is to change the meta so pilots are not exclusively flying Ishtars with sentries and Tengu with rail guns wouldn't it be better to just nerf the hulls? Nerfing the weapon systems also nerfs every other ship that can use that weapon system. Doesn't sound like it will balance anthing at all to be honest.

Im agree, I use Railguns in a diferent way and Im going to be heavily punished for this nerf. If advised i would not train Medium railguns.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#79 - 2015-03-01 09:50:03 UTC
"nerf all med rails" makes no sense apart from "uuuuhm, we can't be bothered to figure it out". 250mm being too good is obvious, 200mm is already borderline and nerfing dual 150 is just moronic.
Valkin Mordirc
#80 - 2015-03-01 13:23:12 UTC
Reading through the comments and see what others have posted. 250mm need the nerf, not ALL Medium ral guns.


CPP You cray cray if you think this is a decent idea. Not to attack you or anything but this seems like a lazy rushed fix to the game which hurts more than then it fixes. Yes 250mm need to be fixed. But not a Nerf to all medium rails.
#DeleteTheWeak