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[Scylla] Ishtars

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stoicfaux
#81 - 2015-02-27 15:07:15 UTC
Or just remove Sentry Drones from the Ishtar and instead give it a "MJD Drone Launcher" that allows the Ishtar to MJD heavy drones onto a target. Give the MJD Drone Launcher a one minute cooldown and/or reduce the Ishtar's bay size to prevent heavy drones from being treated as "ammo."

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Space Captain Austrene
Industry and Exploring Federation
#82 - 2015-02-27 15:08:36 UTC
The problem with ishtars and sentries is two part: Their battleship dps platform and the fact that they can get in close, deploy drones and kite out to max drone control range. What needs to happen is that with the further the ishtar is from their sentries, the less damage they do. ****, call it triangulation. If the range from the ishtar is greater than 1.5 the combined optimal/fall of their sentries there is a dps loss
Nate rayward
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#83 - 2015-02-27 15:08:55 UTC
I feel the nerf will do nothing to the big fleets that you are attempting to stop. In my opinion this nerf will only hurt small gang/ solo pvp and pve and it was my understanding that you guys were promoting small gang fights by adding the jump fatigue, so why go and make a good ship crap for people who want to do the small stuff. Personally i feel like this does nothing to "separate" it in its own class its just makes it worse at everything. Try not to cripple the small guys here like everybody else has stated those fleets will just bring more ships and make up for it. I seen somebody put on here earlier that you should be able to warp to sentries and that seems viable as well as reducing the range you can be away from them. I dont want to see tracking of sentries nerf'd as once again i think that will cripple the pve perks of the ship. Keep in mind you still need to keep this ship more viable than the VNI as it is half the price. I also think it is very odd that with a "balance" you simply make the ship worthless. On the 07 episode one of the guys laughed at how bad the drake and hurricane was hit with the nerf bat.... really if you know the ships are that bad why leave them like that? Why spend so much time nerfing the good ships and not bumping up the crap ones. I think Hacs are supposed to be a stand out class do to their cost and skill required to fly them. If you continue to nerf the hacs out of their use people will just stop flying hacs and move on to something else and you will have a class of ships nobody buys.
colera deldios
#84 - 2015-02-27 15:09:24 UTC
What I find disturbing is that wast majority of people have been discussing the problem with Ishtar for 3 months now both on forums and on reddit and 99.9% of the people agree that it's not the DPS but the targeting range/drone control range. And all this happened on threads CCP clearly observed and yet they announce a nerf to the Ishtar in an attribute that makes 0 sense.


  1. Reduce base targeting range
  2. Remove drone control range bonus
  3. Reduce CPU about -30 so you can't get away as easy with drone mods
  4. Slightly decrease base velocity or increase signature radius


And you are done nothing else needed. At the moment and even after this nerf only 2 ships that can stand against Ishtar is Tengu and Eagle (BS class can't except Machs but all you do then is get under the guns). It's not rational that you need 650m ship to take on a 250m and that is only for a limited time..

Seriously the Ishtar needs to be balanced as noted above so that it remains viable but that you can actually use it's class ships to take it on. It should depend on pilots/fc skills and situation to resolve to victory.

With those changes you have to suffer same problems as every other class. It does not make sense that Zealot or Eagle or Munin can't be used against the Ishtar. Just because Ishtars DPS will now be 500+ DPS it does not mean it wont **** both it's entire class as well as dominate T3 class as well as BS and above...
Hairpins Blueprint
The Northerners
Pandemic Horde
#85 - 2015-02-27 15:09:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Hairpins Blueprint
baltec1 wrote:
Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely.


Remove Sentry bonuses from the hull and add some thing else, +5% armour per lvl or bring back hybrid guns to it. 10% faloff of hybrid guns and 5% to damage. or 5% to speed and 5% to agility per lvl.

weekening damage bonus is just silly, better swap it for something else and move the ship to difrent meta than just nerfing it. Blink
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#86 - 2015-02-27 15:09:34 UTC
The drone bay is still far too large. It's much more in-line with Amarr drone ships, not Gallente ones. Drop the drone bay down to 225-250, and killing the Ishtar's drones becomes a much more viable option.

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stoicfaux
#87 - 2015-02-27 15:10:24 UTC
On a side note, I've been away awhile, does the WiS store finally sell Asbestos Fire Suits? If so, we should pool our funds and buy one for CCP Rise.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
stoicfaux
#88 - 2015-02-27 15:17:53 UTC
colera deldios wrote:
What I find disturbing is that wast majority of people have been discussing the problem with Ishtar for 3 months now both on forums and on reddit and 99.9% of the people agree that it's not the DPS but the targeting range/drone control range. And all this happened on threads CCP clearly observed and yet they announce a nerf to the Ishtar in an attribute that makes 0 sense.

It's a management technique. If the peons cannot agree on a solution, then the manager offers(threatens) to implement something so bad/painful that the horrified peons hurriedly reach/agree_on a common solution that is imminently less painful.

OTOH, this is CCP Rise, so we may wind up with a Rapid Sentry Drone launcher for the Ishtar. Big smile

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#89 - 2015-02-27 15:18:33 UTC  |  Edited by: elitatwo
Alexhandr Shkarov wrote:
I'd much rather see the 5% to sentry bonuses get adjusted to something else, perhaps a bonus to heavy drone microwarpdrive speed? Makes them a little more aggressive in engaging and switching?


No, silly. We already have that and she is called Eos and her smaller sibleing is called Navy Vexor.

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Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#90 - 2015-02-27 15:25:27 UTC
Just for reference - has ANYONE agreed that DPS is the problem?

Anyone?

At all?

Cmon CCP. Notice that much at least.

Overhaul Dscan!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#91 - 2015-02-27 15:28:08 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Or just remove Sentry Drones from the Ishtar and instead give it a "MJD Drone Launcher" that allows the Ishtar to MJD heavy drones onto a target. Give the MJD Drone Launcher a one minute cooldown and/or reduce the Ishtar's bay size to prevent heavy drones from being treated as "ammo."



A ******* drone cannon and you don't ask for the ability for it to fire corpses.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#92 - 2015-02-27 15:32:22 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
i would also consider a stronger drawback for droneboats not needing highs for dps so maybe -2 slots instead of the current -1,

BUT this needs too be applied too gurista ships aswell , they are so OP atm, 2 uber drones also can't be justified,
the gila and rattlesnake do obscene amount of damage they need nerfing.


The solution to guristas ships is to web/TD/ecm one of the drones or if you're veing kited by the mothership scram the drone and use AB to keep it outside 6km (well outside optimal).

Not every day you can cut 30% of another ships dps out that easily. Against a conventional drone boat you will have bigger problems.

Compounded even more if the mothership uses fw drones as those have literally double the base hp of t2 drones meaning that a gila has 10 effective drones worth of hp on the field.

And that's kind of one way to deal with gurista ships.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#93 - 2015-02-27 15:41:53 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Or just remove Sentry Drones from the Ishtar and instead give it a "MJD Drone Launcher" that allows the Ishtar to MJD heavy drones onto a target. Give the MJD Drone Launcher a one minute cooldown and/or reduce the Ishtar's bay size to prevent heavy drones from being treated as "ammo."



A ******* drone cannon and you don't ask for the ability for it to fire corpses.


One problem at a time my good man.
Ben Ishikela
#94 - 2015-02-27 15:47:13 UTC
Here is another suggestion that would work but is more work xD

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2015-02-27 15:49:33 UTC
Ben Ishikela wrote:
Here is another suggestion that would work but is more work xD

The more i think about it, the more i too like the reduction of heavy drone bandwidth needs and size, along with ship bandwidth adjustments.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Ponder Stuff
Jump 2 Beacon
#96 - 2015-02-27 15:49:53 UTC
I think ishtars became the ship of choice for simpletons and blobs for two reasons, firstly i assume pressing F is easier than F1, its slightly closer to the user so even less effort with much less information on the key for those tiny goonswarm brains. Secondly they have way to much control range and can often just be untouchable applying close range dps at 120km+.

Nerf the hell out of it, in this instance the nerf bat is not effective enough so go get a nerf club and beat the snot out of it.

I do like the idea of heavy drone bonuses so at least the drones are at risk even if the control range has to stay at 2 million au.

Glad Rise is on this not Fozzie, we stand a chance of getting a reasonable result and not unmitigated idiocy.

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#97 - 2015-02-27 16:01:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
Imagine if you could fit 5 425mm Railgun IIs on an Eagle with 3x MFS IIs and no tracking mods. Now give it +25% optimal range, +25% tracking, and +50% damage at Caldari Cruiser 5 and HAC 5. This would give you 380*1.5=570 dps, with a 45+30km optimal+falloff (using CN Antimatter) and .01625 rad/s tracking. With Spike, it would have 330dps at 162+30km optimal+falloff and .00375 rad/s tracking. Does that sound balanced on a medium ship?

In comparison, the Ishtar has 702 dps at 37.5+18km with .045 rad/s tracking using Garde IIs. It gets 620 dps at 65.6+48km with .024 Rad/s tracking using Bouncers.

250mm Railgun II on an Eagle with CN Antimatter loaded and no tracking mods have .026 rad/s tracking.

With the proposed change, the damage output of Garde IIs will be 585 dps, and the dps of Bouncers will be 516dps.

Ishtars will still have above average HAC dps and superior tracking at excellent range, all on a highly mobile platform. So I can only conclude that these changes will not really change anything. Ishtars and Tengus will still be the meta until the actual problems are addressed; in this case, Sentry Drones having excellent tracking at battleship engagement ranges when fielded by an Ishtar.

I think it might be better to simply differentiate sentry drone tracking more. By spreading out the variance in tracking across the sentry drone line, a pilot would have give up that awesome range to get the better tracking. Right now and after the proposed change, Ishtars simply have better tracking at all ranges than any ship that can fit a comparable weapon system.

I'm even going to go out on a limb and say that the current meta is worse than the Drake meta ever was. Every single one of the current FotM comps has better damage and application than HML Drakes did, all but one of them has a better tank, they all have better velocity, and all of them have a much lower sigRad. (edit: a graph in the overall Scylla balance devblog contradicts this. But without knowing the criteria used for adding to that cumulative sum, I cannot say one way or the other whether it's accurate or not.)

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Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games.
Suddenly Spaceships.
#98 - 2015-02-27 16:02:55 UTC
Asi and im sure many others have posted. The problem is the ishtars mobility, its great that it has a sig rad reduction, but when it does 2700ms orbit who cares! That combined with its 130km range is uttery ridiculous

Pls nerf mobility of ishtar..
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#99 - 2015-02-27 16:03:41 UTC
Why not just leave the drone bonus on the Ishtar as is and reduce the bandwidth to 100 Mbit?

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Alexandrea Palmtomo
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#100 - 2015-02-27 16:08:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexandrea Palmtomo
These changes without you also fixing bombs/bombers and doing something about how the warp speed changes made using battleships and battlecruisers terrible won't do anything to change the game from the current ishtars/tengus meta. Everyone is sick of flying these ships if you would just make the changes needed to make other doctrines viable things would become more diverse.