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[Scylla] Ishtars

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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#61 - 2015-02-27 14:31:48 UTC
colera deldios wrote:
@Jenn aSide I don't like the Ishtar but it pisses me off when CCP keeps doing these "balances" where they make no sense. Is Ishtar Op ? Sure. Is the DPS the problem.. Hell no.

It's like hey why take a look at what wrong with the ship let's just change 1 number and see what happens.


Oh I know. we're forum wrestling with CCP over just that same kind of issue in the Fighter Delegation thread Big smile

Just sayin that what you posted is spot on, but CCP is made up of people and ticking them off doesn't help. It's enough that you are right about it, don't let it get to you too much.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#62 - 2015-02-27 14:33:17 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
War Kitten wrote:
Gustav Mannfred wrote:
Why not the following:

decrease the volume of Heavy drones to 20m3 and decrease the dronebandwith of all cruiser sized ships to 100m3, that means, cruisers still can use 5 heavys, that can easly be destroyed and need some travel time while they lose 20% damage when using sentrys.


This is probably better than my idea of increasing sentry bandwidth. Go with this.


Blobs would simply bring 20% more ships hence my proposal to switch the sentry bonus to a heavies bonus. The heavies have to be more appealing then the sentries for them to be chosen otherwise blobs will simply compensate any dps nerf with more ships in the blob


That's a bit ridiculous. Where do you conjure up 20% more fleet members? Any and every alliance I've flown with flies with the numbers they have that want to form up. Nobody holds 20% more pilots in reserve just in case the nerf bat strikes a ship doctrine.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
rsantos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2015-02-27 14:34:06 UTC
colera deldios wrote:
@Jenn aSide I don't like the Ishtar but it pisses me off when CCP keeps doing these "balances" where they make no sense. Is Ishtar Op ? Sure. Is the DPS the problem.. Hell no.

It's like hey why take a look at what wrong with the ship let's just change 1 number and see what happens.


The DPS IS a problem! Not many crusiers put out 600-700 dps much less at the insane ranges drone boats have.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#64 - 2015-02-27 14:35:52 UTC
rsantos wrote:
colera deldios wrote:
@Jenn aSide I don't like the Ishtar but it pisses me off when CCP keeps doing these "balances" where they make no sense. Is Ishtar Op ? Sure. Is the DPS the problem.. Hell no.

It's like hey why take a look at what wrong with the ship let's just change 1 number and see what happens.


The DPS IS a problem! Not many crusiers put out 600-700 dps much less at the insane ranges drone boats have.


I have to sort of echo this.

The problem is not the dps or the projection of the Ishtar.

It's the fact that it can do both of those things better than any other ship in it's class, without sacrificing anything in fitting or options.

That had to be addressed, and should have been a long time ago.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Blobskillz McBlub
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2015-02-27 14:37:43 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
rsantos wrote:
colera deldios wrote:
@Jenn aSide I don't like the Ishtar but it pisses me off when CCP keeps doing these "balances" where they make no sense. Is Ishtar Op ? Sure. Is the DPS the problem.. Hell no.

It's like hey why take a look at what wrong with the ship let's just change 1 number and see what happens.


The DPS IS a problem! Not many crusiers put out 600-700 dps much less at the insane ranges drone boats have.


I have to sort of echo this.

The problem is not the dps or the projection of the Ishtar.

It's the fact that it can do both of those things better than any other ship in it's class, without sacrificing anything in fitting or options.

That had to be addressed, and should have been a long time ago.


this change does not adress that. 100 man Ishtar blobs will still oneshot everything and outrun everything
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2015-02-27 14:39:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Probably a bit odd but how about this?

Slot layout 4H/4M/6L
Gallente Cruiser Bonuses
+10% Drone Damage and HP per level
+5% Drone MWD Velocity
Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses
+10% Medium Scout Drone Damage and HP
+7.5% Armor Repair Amount per level

Drone Bandwidth 50Mbps and 200m3 Drone Bay

EDIT: Reduced proposed medium drone damage and HP buff to 10%

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#67 - 2015-02-27 14:40:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Capqu
Querns wrote:
Zosius wrote:
Why don't you make that sentries out of 20km range from the ship get disconnected and be done with it? Leave dps alone.

Actually, this is not a bad idea.

I'd rephrase it as make drone link augmentors ineffective on sentries.

Drone control range seems misapplied towards stationary drones. A reduction to the effect of (Advanced) Drone Avionics to sentries would also help.


drone control range doesn't affect how far the drones can be from your ship
drone control range actually means what range your SHIP [not drones] must be from the target to engage the drones
the only condition on drones is that they are within 250km [activation proximity] of your ship

don't believe me? try getting an ishtar and doing the following

Sentries ---- 100km ---- target ---- 50km ---- Ishtar


the sentries will fire on the target without issue as long as you have 50km drone control range even though you are 150km from the sentries [way out of drone control range]

terribly worded i know, but that's how drone control range works

and once engaged, you can go anywhere on grid as long as you remain within 250km [activation proximity] of your drones and they will not stop firing

perhaps a reduction in activation proximity is in order?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#68 - 2015-02-27 14:40:43 UTC
rsantos wrote:
colera deldios wrote:
@Jenn aSide I don't like the Ishtar but it pisses me off when CCP keeps doing these "balances" where they make no sense. Is Ishtar Op ? Sure. Is the DPS the problem.. Hell no.

It's like hey why take a look at what wrong with the ship let's just change 1 number and see what happens.


The DPS IS a problem! Not many crusiers put out 600-700 dps much less at the insane ranges drone boats have.



DPS matters not one bit if you can't apply it. My Dread can has DPS in the thousands, for some reason I can't get it to do real well in level 1 missions lol.

There are multiple problems with Ishtars, DPS isn't even the biggest one.
Blobskillz McBlub
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2015-02-27 14:41:28 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Probably a bit odd but how about this?

Slot layout 4H/4M/6L
Gallente Cruiser Bonuses
+10% Drone Damage and HP per level
+5% Drone MWD Velocity
Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses
+20% Medium Scout Drone Damage and HP
+7.5% Armor Repair Amount per level

Drone Bandwidth 50Mbps and 200m3 Drone Bay


that would give you super OP medium drones. also I dont like that you are basically taking what makes the gila unique and slap it on another ship
rsantos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2015-02-27 14:41:55 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
rsantos wrote:
colera deldios wrote:
@Jenn aSide I don't like the Ishtar but it pisses me off when CCP keeps doing these "balances" where they make no sense. Is Ishtar Op ? Sure. Is the DPS the problem.. Hell no.

It's like hey why take a look at what wrong with the ship let's just change 1 number and see what happens.


The DPS IS a problem! Not many crusiers put out 600-700 dps much less at the insane ranges drone boats have.


I have to sort of echo this.

The problem is not the dps or the projection of the Ishtar.

It's the fact that it can do both of those things better than any other ship in it's class, without sacrificing anything in fitting or options.

That had to be addressed, and should have been a long time ago.


You can fit a blaster crusier to match the isthar dps... but what will be your range with it? Whats the DPS on a rail, beam or arty crusier or even battleship? Nothing matches sentries... Nerf Then!
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#71 - 2015-02-27 14:42:26 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Probably a bit odd but how about this?

Slot layout 4H/4M/6L
Gallente Cruiser Bonuses
+10% Drone Damage and HP per level
+5% Drone MWD Velocity
Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses
+20% Medium Scout Drone Damage and HP
+7.5% Armor Repair Amount per level

Drone Bandwidth 50Mbps and 200m3 Drone Bay


RIP any reason to ever use a Gila again.
Cataphrac
Doomheim
#72 - 2015-02-27 14:43:34 UTC
As already pointed here:

- No cruiser hull should be allowed to use sentries since they already can use heavy drones.
Only BC, BS and Carrier hulls should use it;

My 2 cents.

Obs.: Raise sentries bandwidth from 25 to 30/35. Just to don't turn Ishtar Online in Eos Online.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#73 - 2015-02-27 14:44:11 UTC
Blobskillz McBlub wrote:

this change does not adress that. 100 man Ishtar blobs will still oneshot everything and outrun everything


There are better ways to drop 100 ships on someone and one-shot alpha them than using a ship that has to lock the target twice before firing. Your issue here is the 100 man fleet to start with.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Faltzs
Thundercats
The Initiative.
#74 - 2015-02-27 14:46:31 UTC
The damage reduction is meh, ishtars will remain the most flexible hac in game. 1) because its vast spread of bonus to drone types heavies/sentries. 2) its ease of fitting both armour or sheild tanks for decent ehp.

I would rather see it loose all sentry bonus in exchange for a remote rep bonus at this point than leave it a can do anything with battleship esc weapons.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2015-02-27 14:47:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Jenn aSide wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Probably a bit odd but how about this?

Slot layout 4H/4M/6L
Gallente Cruiser Bonuses
+10% Drone Damage and HP per level
+5% Drone MWD Velocity
Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses
+20% Medium Scout Drone Damage and HP
+7.5% Armor Repair Amount per level

Drone Bandwidth 50Mbps and 200m3 Drone Bay


RIP any reason to ever use a Gila again.

Blobskillz McBlub wrote:

that would give you super OP medium drones. also I dont like that you are basically taking what makes the gila unique and slap it on another ship

yup, the 20% is too much, if it were reduced to 10% the gila would still be stronger and use less drones, where the ishtar would need to use 5 medium drones to match the gila.

EDIT: After looking at numbers again, the Gila gets a bonus to missile damage, where the Ishtar barely has the powergrid to fit an armor tank and any medium sized guns, so it would need a larger bonus to medium drone damage.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Blobskillz McBlub
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2015-02-27 14:52:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Blobskillz McBlub
War Kitten wrote:
Blobskillz McBlub wrote:

this change does not adress that. 100 man Ishtar blobs will still oneshot everything and outrun everything


There are better ways to drop 100 ships on someone and one-shot alpha them than using a ship that has to lock the target twice before firing. Your issue here is the 100 man fleet to start with.


there are ways to deal with slower big fleets. But you always run into trouble when you are trying to deal with big ishtar fleets. You cant outrun them, you cant outrange them, they got ridiculous base lock range and can apply their DPS over ranges where even battleships struggle to deal that much damage.
In our recent fights with FCON we were lucky that we had Pizza on our side to help out with bomb runs otherwise we would have had almost no chance to win because they were simply able to field more Ishtars then we could reasonably deal with.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#77 - 2015-02-27 14:55:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ines Tegator
Solving the wrong problem, IMO. The design of drones is more complex then mere DPS, and so is the problem of Ishtars Online. I refer to my post in the other sentry thread:

Ines Tegator wrote:
Bouncer nerf misses the point. So does the announced Ishtar nerf of reducing the damage bonus.

Tracking is the problem. Sentries are a BS sized weapon systems. They should not be able to track frigates and cruisers at close range. Sub-BS hulls should not get tracking bonuses to them. With their native high tracking, PLUS the tracking bonus on many ship hulls, sentry drones can apply their BS sized DPS to medium sized or smaller ships, and do it without need for webs or target painters. This should not be possible.

Drones already offer the flexibility of being able to swap weapon class at will. No other weapon system can do this; it's part of their design and their key advantage. By carrying a stock of Light drones in their hold, even a BS can engage frigate sized targets. However, by changing your weapon class, you also change your DPS class. A Dominix using Light Drones is doing a fraction of it's DPS potential; this is a worthwhile tradeoff to hit small targets that would be able to speed tank you otherwise. Sentries don't need to make that tradeoff; that's why they are OP. Putting tracking bonuses on drone boats was a mistake that should never have been made; it sabotages the entire design philosophy of drones.

Without the tracking bonuses, sentries are no more powerful then equivalent BS guns. This is how it should be. Be able to down-class at will to engage a smaller target is already a huge advantage.


TLDR; it's about ease of application, not just raw DPS.

For reference, Garde II's can easily hit cruisers at 10-15km. That's huge for a gun that can also hit out to 40km optimals (50+ with falloff) and 600 dps. For comparison, an Apocalypse with 8 Mega Pulse Laser II's and tracking mods gets similar performance - and the Apoc was SPECIFICALLY INTENDED to be a tracking/application battleship platform. Sentries do it by nature, on all platforms. Something is not adding up here.

Hitting the Ishtar's drone bay size is also called for - Ishtars can carry a full 3 flights of sentries, so they can drop sentries and run to gain the advantage of tracking targets from a distance. The VNI, in comparison, can carry one flight plus either a couple replacements, or a backup squad of light and mediums. This directly addresses the "drop and run" problem by making it a viable strategy to shoot the drones down.

Overhaul Dscan!
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#78 - 2015-02-27 15:00:40 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
rsantos wrote:
colera deldios wrote:
@Jenn aSide I don't like the Ishtar but it pisses me off when CCP keeps doing these "balances" where they make no sense. Is Ishtar Op ? Sure. Is the DPS the problem.. Hell no.

It's like hey why take a look at what wrong with the ship let's just change 1 number and see what happens.


The DPS IS a problem! Not many crusiers put out 600-700 dps much less at the insane ranges drone boats have.


I have to sort of echo this.

The problem is not the dps or the projection of the Ishtar.

It's the fact that it can do both of those things better than any other ship in it's class, without sacrificing anything in fitting or options.

That had to be addressed, and should have been a long time ago.


I agree, the problem is both DPS and application/projection. Both need addressed.

To be fully honest, I expected a better nerf to sentries themselves in the drone balance pass. Ishtars with sentries were in a pretty good place before they ever introduced the drone damage and tracking mods. Since that time, the ishtar hull got better (faster, tankier, smaller sig w/ MWD) and the sentries got better with drone mods.

Part of the problem is the Ishtar drone bonuses, and the other part is sentries themselves.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#79 - 2015-02-27 15:02:50 UTC
War Kitten wrote:


Part of the problem is the Ishtar drone bonuses, and the other part is sentries themselves.



This cannot be said enough.

Overhaul Dscan!
stoicfaux
#80 - 2015-02-27 15:05:07 UTC
To fix damage projection, create Light Sentry Drones (medium size drones) with range that's more in line with cruiser sized weapons. Regular Sentry Drones become Heavy Sentry Drones and are usable only on BS, Carrier, etc. sized ships.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.