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Minimize the docking game

Author
Agent Unknown
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#21 - 2015-02-27 13:55:16 UTC
An idea like this would encourage fights to happen off stations ...I think it's a good idea. The more annoying part about station games is the huge undock radius of most stations and the ability to go *inside* the graphic of the station so you're impossible to bump away (*coughjitacough*).
Clara Barcelo
Abysmal Gentlemen
We Didn't Mean It
#22 - 2015-02-27 14:06:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Clara Barcelo
Alexei Stryker wrote:


Well... Example situation:

You are sitting on the station. A war-target that you think you can handle undocks. You engage. He takles you. 2 of his friends appears on local. It's a bait, you disengage. 10s later his friends appears on grid. 7 sec later they are shooting at you. You are trying to repp, you have to survive the last seconds. Then you dock up.
Docking up is like a "get out of jail, free" card.



You can bump your target out the undocking ring, you can bring more DPS, you can do a lot of things to keep somebody from docking.

Also what if I fight somebody on the undock and win? I have to warp AWAY from the station and warp back even though I won? That sounds really really annoying. Or what if I kill two or three of my targets on a station by myself, and there are still more? I'm just condemned to die because I took a risk and tried to kill one or two before dying, possible surviving the weapons timer to dock?

This would only lead to people not engaging at all. Why bother right?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#23 - 2015-02-27 14:17:36 UTC
Clara Barcelo wrote:
Alexei Stryker wrote:


Well... Example situation:

You are sitting on the station. A war-target that you think you can handle undocks. You engage. He takles you. 2 of his friends appears on local. It's a bait, you disengage. 10s later his friends appears on grid. 7 sec later they are shooting at you. You are trying to repp, you have to survive the last seconds. Then you dock up.
Docking up is like a "get out of jail, free" card.



You can bump your target out the undocking ring, you can bring more DPS, you can do a lot of things to keep somebody from docking.

Also what if I fight somebody on the undock and win? I have to warp AWAY from the station and warp back even though I won? That sounds really really annoying. Or what if I kill two or three of my targets on a station by myself, and there are still more? I'm just condemned to die because I took a risk and tried to kill one or two before dying, possible surviving the weapons timer to dock?

This would only lead to people not engaging at all. Why bother right?



now now lets not talk about taking risks in deadly i love you guys but damn Blink
Alexei Stryker
Council of Stellar Erections
#24 - 2015-02-27 14:19:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexei Stryker
Clara Barcelo wrote:


Also what if I fight somebody on the undock and win? I have to warp AWAY from the station and warp back even though I won? That sounds really really annoying.


No... As my original post stated... You can't dock as long as there are War targets in the grid. If you won, then there are none. You still have to wait for the 60sec weapon timer though.


Clara Barcelo wrote:

Or what if I kill two or three of my targets on a station by myself, and there are still more? I'm just condemned to die because I took a risk and tried to kill one or two before dying, possible surviving the weapons timer to dock?

Thats the risk... You risked to fight three targets... YOu risked to die... No problem there...
And as you said :
Quote:
I'm just condemned to die because I took a risk and tried to kill one or two before dying

You took the risk knowing that you will die.
If you can warp-off by killing the scrambler... Well...
Agent Unknown
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#25 - 2015-02-27 14:52:51 UTC
Clara Barcelo wrote:
Alexei Stryker wrote:


Well... Example situation:

You are sitting on the station. A war-target that you think you can handle undocks. You engage. He takles you. 2 of his friends appears on local. It's a bait, you disengage. 10s later his friends appears on grid. 7 sec later they are shooting at you. You are trying to repp, you have to survive the last seconds. Then you dock up.
Docking up is like a "get out of jail, free" card.



You can bump your target out the undocking ring, you can bring more DPS, you can do a lot of things to keep somebody from docking.

Also what if I fight somebody on the undock and win? I have to warp AWAY from the station and warp back even though I won? That sounds really really annoying. Or what if I kill two or three of my targets on a station by myself, and there are still more? I'm just condemned to die because I took a risk and tried to kill one or two before dying, possible surviving the weapons timer to dock?

This would only lead to people not engaging at all. Why bother right?


You can't bump off most stations because of the docking radius. It's literally 20km on some stations.
Soeren Svenson
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#26 - 2015-02-27 20:24:07 UTC
I'm totally with Alex. The docking games in highsec are more than just stupid. With this little change the wars become more interresting. And by the way. It should be very more expensive to declare a war to a corporation. And how about an automatic abortion of a war with no kills? That would be great.
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#27 - 2015-02-27 20:39:42 UTC
First off... no, thats dumb. And 2nd, no, it wouldn't change anything anyways, most fights on station include getting pointed so you aren't going anywhere anyways.

The game already has a mechanic for this, called the weapons timer. It takes care of this nicely. Though it does have some room to be improved in how much DPS one has to field to kill a faction battleship with half decent resists in that time.

I like the intent and idea to fix station games, but there are other ways to do it. Things like neutral reppers gaining the weapons timer for interferring (so they can't insta dock the moment they come under fire, can't 'actually' risk that shiney nestor now can we?). Or perhaps you aren't allowed to change ships in space (via orca or bowhead) while part of a duel? Another idea is for them to reduce the docking ring on some stations, as it is pretty ridiculously huge on quite a few stations and can be quite irritating to try to bump someone out of range only for them to dock immediately after a couple of good hits.

But really, no, if you are fighting several war targets and you happen to blow them up, all they have to do to keep you from docking is just make sure they have someone on grid. That sounds like a terrible idea for combat.
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#28 - 2015-02-27 20:44:27 UTC
Soeren Svenson wrote:
And by the way. It should be very more expensive to declare a war to a corporation. And how about an automatic abortion of a war with no kills? That would be great.
Agreed that hi-sec wars are usually no more than station games with a couple of gate camps, and occasionally scanning down a unsuspecting missioner who isn't very bright.

Wars definintely need fixing. Seeing how there are dozens of groups out there that have literally hundreds of active outgoing wars, the system is broken. A single corp should not be able to constantly cycle through wars at that rate. Maybe if costs scaled to how many decs you currently had outgoing? Kinda like they used to, each one got more expensive. I honestly don't know why the main griefer groups haven't just out and war dec'd all of highsec at the same time, instead of being lazy and only cycling a few hundred at a time each.
Alexei Stryker
Council of Stellar Erections
#29 - 2015-03-02 10:48:46 UTC
Dangeresque Too wrote:
First off... no, thats dumb. And 2nd, no, it wouldn't change anything anyways, most fights on station include getting pointed so you aren't going anywhere anyways.

No, you can still disengange and dock after 60s.

Quote:
The game already has a mechanic for this, called the weapons timer. It takes care of this nicely. Though it does have some room to be improved in how much DPS one has to field to kill a faction battleship with half decent resists in that time.

It's not enough... Don't tell me I have to field 20 people to kill a Ancillary boosting BS under 60s. That is just unbalanced.

Quote:
I like the intent and idea to fix station games, but there are other ways to do it. Things like neutral reppers gaining the weapons timer for interferring (so they can't insta dock the moment they come under fire, can't 'actually' risk that shiney nestor now can we?).

I like this idea too

Quote:
Another idea is for them to reduce the docking ring on some stations, as it is pretty ridiculously huge on quite a few stations and can be quite irritating to try to bump someone out of range only for them to dock immediately after a couple of good hits.

This will be solved by my idea. No need to reduce docking ring

Quote:
But really, no, if you are fighting several war targets and you happen to blow them up, all they have to do to keep you from docking is just make sure they have someone on grid.

What keeps you from warping away?

Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#30 - 2015-03-02 19:24:15 UTC
Op is tired of people running from him in pve and pva boats, and wants it to where he can sit outside of a station they warp to and it automatically starts a weapons timer that won't go away until either party is off grid or the other is killed.

This would be highly abused as if I war dec some corps and got in to system before they get to station, I and my members could have it where every station and gate is unusable to the enemy, guaranteeing the ability to kill some barge or hauler or pve with a tank tackler and backup a warp away

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith

Sal Askiras
Doomheim
#31 - 2015-03-02 21:22:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Sal Askiras
Most of the replies to the thread are people that have never been in a HS war it seems. This is what happens: Attacking corp war-decs an industrial corp. The industrial corp gets combat ships together to fight back. Indys track a member of the attacking corp to a station. Attacker undocks, fight begins. Attacker sees that he is out-numbered. and stops shooting for 60 seconds. He then docks, and is immediately repaired to 100%.

The OP's suggestion is, when under a war, with war targets on grid, the attacker would not be able to dock just by stopping his fire for 60 seconds. He would have to break point, warp away, and warp back before he could dock in that station.

Most HS War-dec Corps are just looking to kill careless barges in belts, and ambush haulers at gates. They expose themselves to 0 Risk. The minute they find themselves at a disadvantage, they run.
Alexei Stryker
Council of Stellar Erections
#32 - 2015-03-02 22:13:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexei Stryker
Agondray wrote:
Op is tired of people running from him in pve and pva boats, and wants it to where he can sit outside of a station they warp to and it automatically starts a weapons timer that won't go away until either party is off grid or the other is killed.

This would be highly abused as if I war dec some corps and got in to system before they get to station, I and my members could have it where every station and gate is unusable to the enemy, guaranteeing the ability to kill some barge or hauler or pve with a tank tackler and backup a warp away


I don't see anybody writing about automatic wepaon timer... I don't really get what people are reading and implying...
I wrote "The weapon timer triggers a flag" ... There is no automatic triggering of weapon timer in there.
And to trigger the wepon timer you have still to attack.
John Jockson
Clockwork Empire
#33 - 2015-03-02 22:33:22 UTC
+1
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#34 - 2015-03-03 00:31:32 UTC
No.

being able to escalate the fight whilst you hold someone there for an unlimited amount of time is not a good idea, its just a blobbers wet dream. Being forced to warp off and warp back after winning a fight is a poor mechanic.

You should ask for extended weapons timers if you think they should have more risk. You should ask for neutral logi to be auto-decced the moment they provide reps to a war target. But you shouldnt ask for this.

The other things you should do is learn to fight on gates and in space. Since stations are 100% safe to leave from anyway and provide no content on their exterior, the ONLY people who know what they are doing and are fighting on a station are people invested in station games. If you cant handle it, dont fight on stations, bait them out else where.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Lienzo
Amanuensis
#35 - 2015-03-03 01:41:09 UTC
In terms of pure aesthetics, I'm not too fond of stations. They're just too simple. I say give us some signs of life. Expand stations into a series of installations that are flung all across the entire grid. There can even be giant shields around them where no-one can even lock others. They could even have giant mobile warp disruptor fields that oblige pilots of manually slowboat from one area to another, or even from the edge of the grid.

Pain in the arse? Maybe. Long and slow, or inconvenient to your isk-efficiency per hour? Don't really care. I want those dynamic encounters. I want the fastness of fast ships to be something with a practical bent as well as a tactical one. I want that velocity bonus on your industrial ship to affect the bottom line. I want to see majestic fleets of large ships plowing through space, and a large range of possibilities shaping how pilots will choose to engage one another and how their respective leaders will choose to position themselves to best advantage. I want space to be BIG. Epically big.

Perhaps we could even extend some of the functionality of stations into industrial menu access zones, gradually negating even the need to dock most of the time. It's so easy to just go AFK in them. I think they should charge by the hour, and require rentals for inventory. If we stopped automatically thinking of inventory as forever, it wouldn't be such a big hurdle to implement station destruction.

As far as current gen stations and crime are concerned, station guns should be independent of concord. They should just respond to all flagging by opening fire. Simple, easy nimbyism. Cater to the convenience of no-one. Who ever had the notion that war was supposed to be easy? War is hell.
Alexei Stryker
Council of Stellar Erections
#36 - 2015-03-03 09:49:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexei Stryker
Daichi Yamato wrote:
No.
You should ask for extended weapons timers if you think they should have more risk. You should ask for neutral logi to be auto-decced the moment they provide reps to a war target. But you shouldnt ask for this.


I thought about extending weapon timers too, but I came to the conclusion that extending is a very bad idea since
1) everybody is affected by it
2) if the weapon timer is extended for example to 300s, you have to wait the full 300s before able to dock or use gates. You will have no option to "break" the timer. It will be more annoying than just leaving a grid.

And leaving a grid is not always be neccessary because the flag resets if no wartargets is on the grid.


About the neutral logi:
I also have ideas about that, but I dont like to mixed up multiple ideas in a suggestion.
Aursentris
Council of Stellar Erections
#37 - 2015-03-04 10:49:24 UTC
+1
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