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[Scylla] Strategic Cruiser Defensive Subsystems

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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#121 - 2015-02-27 11:57:43 UTC
As one who owns all four T3s, this set of changes looks good to me.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#122 - 2015-02-27 12:44:23 UTC
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
now if only the prop mod bonus affected only 10mn classes.

No, 100mn meta is good and completely balanced. It doesn't scale well and small gang/solo pvp has never been an issue.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#123 - 2015-02-27 12:56:50 UTC
Prospector Monk wrote:
Signature Radius: 150 (-15) Tengu Defensive - Supplemental Screening

+5% Shield HP and +3% Shield Recharge Speed per level (previously +10% Shield HP)

Well I guess the lvl 5 mission runner are pleased?


AFAIK (haven't run the numbers) its just to offset the loss of passive regen from the loss of overall HP as its quite a big hit to PVE passive shield tanked setups - don't think you get anything extra out of it.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2015-02-27 13:10:02 UTC
My question is, is this slight nerf to the tanking capacities really so critical that these changes can't wait for the full balance pass of T3 cruisers?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#125 - 2015-02-27 13:12:13 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
i honestly can't help feel that the irrelevant 3% regen bonus and the extra 2.5% shaved off the tengu defensive sub is bullshit.

just nerf them all to 7.5%.


why because you don't know how to fit around regen?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#126 - 2015-02-27 13:13:03 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
My question is, is this slight nerf to the tanking capacities really so critical that these changes can't wait for the full balance pass of T3 cruisers?


I would rather they slowly tweak the subs one at a time rather than do a blanket pass where they miss something this is a much more controlled way to do it

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#127 - 2015-02-27 13:25:23 UTC
Looks a good start. Fixes the main issue with T3s as a whole, combined with some other tweaks they should still be strong ships to use without dwarfing what HACs/Command ships can do in 99% of scenarios.
Talrath
Beyond Frontier
Pandemic Horde
#128 - 2015-02-27 13:25:47 UTC
So you want to nerf T3s...sure, then you need to start lowering their price and removing the risk of losing skillpoints -_- or else no one will fly them, cause the risk (Price and skillpoints) just arent worth it...
We are spending a lot of isk on these ships and taking the risk of losing skillpoints cause they are "extremely powerful ships" if you take that away without giving something in return (like removing skill loss) why would anyone fly them??
I fly all T3s and dont see the logic in nerfing the tengu more than the others and adding some useless shield regen bonus...like thats gonna help...not everyone uses passive tanked tengus....!
Lugh Crow-Slave
#129 - 2015-02-27 13:44:40 UTC
Talrath wrote:
So you want to nerf T3s...sure, then you need to start lowering their price and removing the risk of losing skillpoints -_- or else no one will fly them, cause the risk (Price and skillpoints) just arent worth it...
We are spending a lot of isk on these ships and taking the risk of losing skillpoints cause they are "extremely powerful ships" if you take that away without giving something in return (like removing skill loss) why would anyone fly them??
I fly all T3s and dont see the logic in nerfing the tengu more than the others and adding some useless shield regen bonus...like thats gonna help...not everyone uses passive tanked tengus....!


then don't use that sub that is the buffer sub getting that not the active one


also active tank shield fits do benefit for shield recharge rate

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#130 - 2015-02-27 13:48:15 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
My question is, is this slight nerf to the tanking capacities really so critical that these changes can't wait for the full balance pass of T3 cruisers?


It is an interesting question.
Dave Stark
#131 - 2015-02-27 13:50:34 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
i honestly can't help feel that the irrelevant 3% regen bonus and the extra 2.5% shaved off the tengu defensive sub is bullshit.

just nerf them all to 7.5%.


why because you don't know how to fit around regen?


no.
Tineoidea Asanari
Liga Freier Terraner
Northern Coalition.
#132 - 2015-02-27 14:10:01 UTC
Talrath wrote:
So you want to nerf T3s...sure, then you need to start lowering their price and removing the risk of losing skillpoints -_- or else no one will fly them, cause the risk (Price and skillpoints) just arent worth it...


Compare the T3s with other ships with that pricetag: Those are mainly pirate or navy battleships. T3s dont only fit a far superior tank (in addition to a signature that is ridiculous), they also hit far better, align and warp faster, etc. pp. - long story short, they are preferred in every thinkable way and the only downside are the 4 days of additional trainingtime if you lose one. You dont lose T3 that often (unless you dont know what you do), so I'd call that pretty balanced.

With railguns getting nerfed (hitting both the aweful railgu and railprot doctrines) and T3s rebalanced, it might allow a new meta consisting of mainly battleship fleets crushing each others head instead of slippery petes and Ishtars cowarding everywhere.
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#133 - 2015-02-27 14:26:11 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
now if only the prop mod bonus affected only 10mn classes.


a more sensible way to fix this would be to just completely prevent people from fitting oversized or undersized prop mods


I dont have a problem with oversized mods, I just think the bonus and oversized combined is too powerful.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#134 - 2015-02-27 14:43:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Tineoidea Asanari wrote:
Talrath wrote:
So you want to nerf T3s...sure, then you need to start lowering their price and removing the risk of losing skillpoints -_- or else no one will fly them, cause the risk (Price and skillpoints) just arent worth it...


Compare the T3s with other ships with that pricetag: Those are mainly pirate or navy battleships. T3s dont only fit a far superior tank (in addition to a signature that is ridiculous), they also hit far better, align and warp faster, etc. pp. - long story short, they are preferred in every thinkable way and the only downside are the 4 days of additional trainingtime if you lose one. You dont lose T3 that often (unless you dont know what you do), so I'd call that pretty balanced.

With railguns getting nerfed (hitting both the aweful railgu and railprot doctrines) and T3s rebalanced, it might allow a new meta consisting of mainly battleship fleets crushing each others head instead of slippery petes and Ishtars cowarding everywhere.


Battleships still need a touch before people would really want to use them like that mind - after awhile the warp speed, etc. becomes mind numbing.

The "problem" with T3s IMO has always been that and, and, and, and factor rather than any one specific attribute being a problem (even EHP) I don't personally mind a T3 having a faction BS style tank or better but in no way should that be combined with HAC like mobility and signature.

Strategic cruisers should be powerful but there should always be a choice and compromise.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#135 - 2015-02-27 14:47:36 UTC
Rowells wrote:
I believe the highest non-belonged set up I've seen on tengu reached 170 maybe.


Currently a Tengu can easily reach 340k EHP using a T2 fit.

To repost: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5526808#post5526808

And to summarize the above linked post for the lazy: The Tengu nerf is completely insufficient without a total rebalance on the slot layout and engineering subsystems.

btw, HMLs still suck.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Unamed Vyvorant
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2015-02-27 15:24:44 UTC
T3s Vs FracBS
-less tank
-1.5X less dps
-skill loss
-less cap
-less slots (vindi have 5 mid-slots proteus only 3)
-less anti-jam
-less optimal
-MJD?
-target count
-lock range
-fitting problems
-learning subsis skills in 5 takes over 20 days

+agility
+warp speed
+scan res
+mwd speed (20% more then Bs)
+weapon sig rate
+sig size
+mass
and why?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#137 - 2015-02-27 15:32:13 UTC
Unamed Vyvorant wrote:
T3s Vs FracBS
-less tank
-1.5X less dps
-skill loss
-less cap
-less slots (vindi have 5 mid-slots proteus only 3)
-less anti-jam
-less optimal
-MJD?
-target count
-lock range
-fitting problems
-learning subsis skills in 5 takes over 20 days

+agility
+warp speed
+scan res
+mwd speed (20% more then Bs)
+weapon sig rate
+sig size
+mass
and why?


The fact that you had to show T3 vs faction battleships and not other cruisers is telling of how overpowered these things are
Ktersida Nyn'Amanyn
Querschlaeger
#138 - 2015-02-27 15:33:34 UTC
No bonus on shield transfer and remote rep range on the adaptive shielding / augmentor? I hoped for 20% or 30% per skill level. I'm sad now. :(

eHP nerf looks fine to me.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#139 - 2015-02-27 15:33:55 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
My question is, is this slight nerf to the tanking capacities really so critical that these changes can't wait for the full balance pass of T3 cruisers?


I would rather they slowly tweak the subs one at a time rather than do a blanket pass where they miss something this is a much more controlled way to do it


they always miss something might aswell get as much bang for your buck as you can

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#140 - 2015-02-27 15:35:03 UTC
Ktersida Nyn'Amanyn wrote:
No bonus on shield transfer and remote rep range on the adaptive shielding / augmentor? I hoped for 20% or 30% per skill level. I'm sad now. :(

eHP nerf looks fine to me.


assuming they remove rigs then the HP is fine otherwise they will still be better than bc tanks, would be nice too see the T2 resists removed aswell its a must

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using