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[Scylla] Medium Railguns

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CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2015-02-27 11:00:16 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
As announced last night on the o7 show, we have a list of high-impact balance changes planned for Scylla.

One of those changes is a reduction in rate of fire for all medium railguns by 7.5% for all types.

Back in 2013 we did a balance pass on all medium long range turrets, which in general had a very positive effect on the balance of usage. While we are happy with the results, we do see the improvement to rails may have gone a bit too far and the result is a strong pressure to field rail platforms: Moas, Tengus, Vultures, Proteii, Eagle, etc.

There are of course many contributing factors to the popularity of those ships, but railguns are simply the simplest angle of attack for us when it comes to having a small impact on all of them at once.

You can find a more detailed description of the situation in this dev blog (coming out later today).

Looking forward to your feedback.

@ccp_rise
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2015-02-27 11:02:53 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
ed: First :D

That's pretty heavy for a first pass, but needed.
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2015-02-27 11:03:25 UTC
I hope you did your math on this. It seems to be a step in right direction.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#4 - 2015-02-27 11:04:15 UTC
At first look I am not too concerned.
Swanky nutjob
Holding Inc.
#5 - 2015-02-27 11:09:33 UTC
Did you factor in rails are one of the few systems which can hit out to ranges that Ishtars orbit at?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#6 - 2015-02-27 11:10:45 UTC
Swanky nutjob wrote:
Did you factor in rails are one of the few systems which can hit out to ranges that Ishtars orbit at?


rate of fire wont change that. Ishtars are also getting nerfed too.Blink
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#7 - 2015-02-27 11:15:30 UTC
seems good. 250mms in particular were beyond ridiculous and this should tone them down a bit

maybe look at making javelin useful while you're looking at railguns though, that ammo is really bad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
Anthar Thebess
#8 - 2015-02-27 11:20:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
I think rails where not the issue - they are ok now.
Again combining rail guns with the overpowered hulls (eg Tengu) was the only issue.

For example.
Harpy gangs are very specific, and are easy to counter.
They die in masses.

I think no change to rail guns are necessary - and nerfing them will put again some cruisers out of the fields.
Simple additional nerf to Caldari offensive system can solve the Rail Tengu issue once and for all , while not affecting other ships that are now viable.


So NO to rail nerf.
Yes to adjusting Tengu Offensive system.

We could also consider changing a bit Eagle for lower optimal , bigger fallof.

Edit.

Before nefring guns - CCP must first change logistics.
It is already hard to kill stuff , and this change will not help to solve this issue.

My suggestion.
1. Instead of nerfing medium rails, increase damage output from all medium weapon systems.
2. Increase all damage output from all LARGE weapons (excluding drones) by 20%.
- for all alpha weapons decrease cycle ( to not simplify damage output from ganking tornados )
- for all dps weapons increase raw dps output.

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Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#9 - 2015-02-27 11:23:06 UTC
This seems like a sensible tweak.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#10 - 2015-02-27 11:26:33 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
I think rails where not the issue - they are ok now.
Again combining rail guns with the overpowered hulls (eg Tengu) was the only issue.

For example.
Harpy gangs are very specific, and are easy to counter.
They die in masses.

I think no change to rail guns are necessary - and nerfing them will put again some cruisers out of the fields.
Simple additional nerf to Caldari offensive system can solve the Rail Tengu issue once and for all , while not affecting other ships that are now viable.


So NO to rail nerf.
Yes to adjusting Tengu Offensive system.

We could also consider changing a bit Eagle for lower optimal , bigger fallof.



Harpy fleet dont use med railsBlink
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#11 - 2015-02-27 11:28:40 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
I think rails where not the issue - they are ok now.
Again combining rail guns with the overpowered hulls (eg Tengu) was the only issue.

For example.
Harpy gangs are very specific, and are easy to counter.
They die in masses.

I think no change to rail guns are necessary - and nerfing them will put again some cruisers out of the fields.
Simple additional nerf to Caldari offensive system can solve the Rail Tengu issue once and for all , while not affecting other ships that are now viable.


So NO to rail nerf.
Yes to adjusting Tengu Offensive system.

We could also consider changing a bit Eagle for lower optimal , bigger fallof.



all the ships that use 250mms are pretty strong, so i'm fairly sure you're wrong and targeting the med railguns is a good idea

harpys wont be affected

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2015-02-27 11:30:00 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
I think rails where not the issue - they are ok now.
Again combining rail guns with the overpowered hulls (eg Tengu) was the only issue.

For example.
Harpy gangs are very specific, and are easy to counter.
They die in masses.

I think no change to rail guns are necessary - and nerfing them will put again some cruisers out of the fields.
Simple additional nerf to Caldari offensive system can solve the Rail Tengu issue once and for all , while not affecting other ships that are now viable.


So NO to rail nerf.
Yes to adjusting Tengu Offensive system.

We could also consider changing a bit Eagle for lower optimal , bigger fallof.



Rails were so stupid they were better DPS on hulls not even bonused for them. Railgun stabber had no business out DPSing a projectile stabber, for example.

Eagles are about as common in Eve as they are in the wild. Endangered species.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#13 - 2015-02-27 11:38:13 UTC
Need to run numbers, but this is a bigger hit to dps than people think. Your not going to get too many complaints on this though.

Yaay!!!!
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#14 - 2015-02-27 11:50:50 UTC
Maybe this will slow or cease the posting of "make artillery have better RoF with less alpha to compete with rails" threads.
Discomanco
We pooped on your lawn
#15 - 2015-02-27 11:58:11 UTC 
Eagle:
5*250mm Railgun T2 - Fed Navy Antimatter Charges
4 Mag Stabs T2
511 DPS - 40.5k+15km range

Eagle:
5*Heavy Neutron Blaster T2 - Fed Navy Antimatter Charges
4 Mag Stabs T2
557 DPS - 5.08k+6.25k range


There really shouldn't be 45 DPS difference between long range guns and close range guns, especially not considering there's also 45km falloff difference as well. +1km = -1 DPS just seems wrong Blink
The Rate of Fire nerf should do good to separate them a bit. Not too heavy, likely not too light
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#16 - 2015-02-27 12:02:48 UTC
Was that really all the way back in 2013?? Wow... I feel old. I thought medium railguns were in a pretty good place as is. Can you explain or give numbers to support this nerf?

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#17 - 2015-02-27 12:06:12 UTC
will it ever be possible to armour tank and fit long range guns?

also will my ferox ever stop having effectively 1 less slot than other BCs?
Swanky nutjob
Holding Inc.
#18 - 2015-02-27 12:24:40 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Swanky nutjob wrote:
Did you factor in rails are one of the few systems which can hit out to ranges that Ishtars orbit at?


rate of fire wont change that. Ishtars are also getting nerfed too.Blink


I mean't in respect to the overall use of Rails as a platform vs other weapon types.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2015-02-27 12:31:11 UTC
So back in Odyssey medium railguns got, +15% damage, +15% ROF, and -15% tracking.
This leaves us with effectively +15% damage +7.5% ROF and -15% tracking.

Seems fair enough, 250mm rails were competing with heavy neutron blasters for damage output.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Basil Pupkin
Strategic Incompetence
#20 - 2015-02-27 12:55:30 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
So back in Odyssey medium railguns got, +15% damage, +15% ROF, and -15% tracking.
This leaves us with effectively +15% damage +7.5% ROF and -15% tracking.

Seems fair enough, 250mm rails were competing with heavy neutron blasters for damage output.

Just to correct your math, adding 15% ROF and removing 7.5% ROF from that doesn't give +7.5% ROF, it gives +6.375% ROF from original in the result.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
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