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Alundil

Rolled Out

Likes received: 1,105

#81 - 2015-02-26 22:21:56 UTC

Rowells wrote:

Grath Telkin wrote:

Rowells wrote:

Wander Prian wrote:

Rowells wrote:

First

Why do the armor subs get less nerf than the tengus shield sub? Imo the armor subs are extremely powerful considering you can out tank every single subcap using them.

Because they don't have nifty value like shield regen in armor that they could dump the remaining bonus into without screwing up other stuff besides tanking

I honestly don't see passive regen being anywhere near as powerful as an extra 100k+ ehp though.

Nice number you pulled out of your butt there, anything else hiding up there with it?

Iirc proteus can pull 320k and legion can do 270k with only T2 mods. I believe the highest non-belonged set up I've seen on tengu reached 170 maybe.

BL flies a RailGu setup that easily (and cheaply) hits over 200k EHP before links, etc etc. Legions in a fleet.....those don't happen unless in wspace and they are definitely notn pushing 270k EHP in typical configurations. Same thing with Proteus. No one uses them as a fleet doctrine outside of wspace and those typical configurations are, again, far less tanky than the RailGu seen in 00 (usually on the order of 120k-130k EHP).

I'm right behind you

1,718
Anthar Thebess Likes received: 1,718	#82 - 2015-02-26 22:25:14 UTC 5% per level or increase more base signature. Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists Show your support to The Cause!

unimatrix0030

University of Caille

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 241

#83 - 2015-02-26 22:34:26 UTC

Rowells wrote:

Iirc proteus can pull 320k and legion can do 270k with only T2 mods. I believe the highest non-belonged set up I've seen on tengu reached 170 maybe.

No way you can get above 100kehp on just t2 mods without implants and being able to fit modules in mids and high slots.

With this nerf we get ships that aren't versatile(t3 cruisers can't change modes like the t3 destroyers), have less dps then a hac , less ehp like a hac . So basicly a useless ship.
They even ecm/damp/tracking disrupt/neut/long point/paint worse then a T2.

Next meta will be command ships with t2 recons.... .

No local in null sec would fix everything!

Alundil

Rolled Out

Likes received: 1,105

#84 - 2015-02-26 22:49:17 UTC

Aliventi wrote:

CCP Fozzie would you please present the numbers showing the current HP stats of a Tengu with supplemental screening fit, a Legion with adaptive plating fit, and Proteus with adaptive plating fit; then compare them to the soon to be nerfed versions? Essentially please give us numerical proof that the Tengu deserves a 5% nerf AND a 200 base HP nerf while the Legion and Proteus only deserve a 2.5% nerf. I have a feeling it does, but I am not 100% sure on how to calculate the numbers.

As I mentioned in another comment

same number of damage mods in the lows
Typical 00 fleet Tengu (think BL. RailGu for example) will bring >450 dps @ 40km or ~260ish @ 130km (un bonused lock range is 86km). All the while pushing ~206k EHP pure T2 fit. Before links

Typical wspace RailProt (because that's the only place you'll generally see a proteus doctrine) will bring >600 dps @ 18km or ~360 dps @ 65km. All the while pushing ~128k EHP and that's with some faction tank mods for fitting. Before links.

Typical wspace Ham Legion (because that's the only place you'll generally see a legion doctrine and lol at beam legion in land of neuts) will bring >500 dps @ 16km or ~390 dps @ 30km. All the while pushing ~165k EHP and that's with some faction tank mods for fitting. Before links.

So, basically Tengu with the Supplemental Screening sub far outshines what the proteus and legion are capable of in terms of tank without sacrificing much at all in terms dps, while remaining far more mobile and with far more range.

It's really not that hard to figure out why Tengu Supplemental Screening is seeing a 10% to 5% reduction and the other two are only going from 10% to 7.5%

I'm right behind you

Alundil

Rolled Out

Likes received: 1,105

#85 - 2015-02-26 23:03:32 UTC

Smelly PirateWhore wrote:

No idea what changes will be in store but if there's one thing I really, really would like to see is the Interdiction Nullifier sub and Covert Ops sub moved to the same category, i.e. offensive or whatever. That way someone has to choose either to A) be nullified OR B) be cloaky. Both at the same time are just ridiculous, especially coupled with the reasonably high agility of a tech 3 cruiser. The only way to catch a cloaky-nullified cruiser currently is for the pilot to seriously, SERIOUSLY balls up. All is required is the most basic level of competence and you are nigh-on invulnerable.

Cloaky-nullified t3 jumps in, aligns and cloaks. Re-sebo'd interceptor immediately burns at t3 and scores a decloak. Unfortunately the time it takes the interceptor to close the distance plus the added time of having to then select and lock the t3 is far more than is required for that t3 to have aligned and be entering warp. The only way that t3 is getting caught is either A) he is unlucky and spawns too close to an object to be able to cloak up (incredibly unlikely unless you have the gate surrounded by a decent-sized fleet, or have deposited cans/drones around the gate, which is of course an exploit), or B) if he has mistimed his cloak and it is not ready to be activated again since the last activation. Point B is now far less likely than in the past due to a helpful countdown indicator depicting exactly when that cooldown has finished.

I'm not even gonna get started on cloaky-nullified t3s flying around with fittings and a mobile depot in cargohold to fly to and from systems in which they will plex/run missions etc...

so yeah sorry for rant but to reiterate: I think the cloaky and nullify subs should both be on the same slot

I don't fly a nullified T3 setup because, honestly, if I need to be nigh uncatchable and cloaky I'll use a covops for far less risk and I don't do dumb things like try and use a T3 cruiser as a hauler. That said, making the cloak and nulli subs both into the same sub class (offensive) would completely kill the use of the nullification sub. T3 are fat. And unless tricked out for agility don't align very well at all. The time to warp is ~6s or more on all of them. What you have an issue with is the cloak+MWD trick but that is in play with a great number of hulls and not just nulli T3 setups. This is because of server tick. Want a better chance of catching them? Move to London (and no I"m not joking).

Other than that - your suggestion/wish would see a massive drop in the usage of nulli subsystems (if that's even possible) because no one in their right mind would choose nulli over cloak when cloak+MWD is still a "thing".

I'm right behind you

Black Hydra Consortium. 16,296
Kaarous Aldurald Black Hydra Consortium. Likes received: 16,296	#86 - 2015-02-26 23:09:29 UTC 2 While these are fine and dandy... Do not neglect to fix the Legion's cloak subsystem. It is completely borked. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.

Alexis Nightwish

Likes received: 443

#87 - 2015-02-26 23:18:01 UTC | Edited by: Alexis Nightwish

Sad. You used 'nudge' when you needed to use 'cludge'.

The base HP is still unchanged from their ridiculous level (about *twice* the amount of their navy/faction/T2 counterparts for those wondering)
The per level bonus is still full re-tard, especially on the armor tankers.
These ships continue to have full T2 resists and THREE rig slots.

And this is just their defensive attributes. I didn't even get into links, nullification and cloaking concurrently, neither nullification nor covert reconfig penalizing their defense, nullification not harming their offense, etc. etc. etc. which results in these ships outclassing every other cruiser, battle cruiser, and battleship in the game (other than the Ishtar and VNI which apparently are not really getting nerfed either).

There's just no way you can be so blind to their level of broken-ness, so I wonder why you don't actually fix them for the good of the game.

You know, with Phoebe I thought CCP was starting down the path of nerfing **** that's glaringly broken with a righteous fury. Seems old habits die hard even if you fire everyone.

Fear not strategic cruiser apologists! Your ships are unharmed and your tears are unfarmed!

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers

Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration 584
Owen Levanth Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration Likes received: 584	#88 - 2015-02-26 23:32:50 UTC 3 Kaarous Aldurald wrote: While these are fine and dandy... Do not neglect to fix the Legion's cloak subsystem. It is completely borked. The Legion does not have a cloak subsystem. It's actually a mislabeled suicide subsystem.

Lloyd Roses

Artificial Memories

Likes received: 1,356

#89 - 2015-02-26 23:36:05 UTC

Alexis Nightwish wrote:

And this is just their defensive attributes. I didn't even get into links, nullification and cloaking concurrently, neither nullification nor covert reconfig penalizing their defense, nullification not harming their offense, etc. etc. etc. which results in these ships outclassing every other cruiser, battle cruiser, and battleship in the game (other than the Ishtar and VNI which apparently are not really getting nerfed either).

If you can choose between 1 damage mod and nullification or 2 damage mods and no nullification, that's not *no downsides*. Neglecting a better offensive option to go with a worse offensive option but added utility is not 'losing out on nothing*.

Kenshin. Fraternity. 3
Predator BOA Kenshin. Fraternity. Likes received: 3	#90 - 2015-02-27 00:43:58 UTC Gday Guys It seem like an interesting Buff and Nerf with this Subsystem. But question is there going to be and Nerf or Buff with the Armor or Shield Resistance with the changes?

Bat Country Pandemic Horde 19,001
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Horde Likes received: 19,001	#91 - 2015-02-27 00:52:33 UTC Predator BOA wrote: Gday Guys It seem like an interesting Buff and Nerf with this Subsystem. But question is there going to be and Nerf or Buff with the Armor or Shield Resistance with the changes? They need a nerf, along with their base HP otherwise we still have battleship tanks on a cruiser.

Caleb Seremshur

Commando Guri

Guristas Pirates

Likes received: 885

#92 - 2015-02-27 01:14:32 UTC

Dave Stark wrote:

i honestly can't help feel that the irrelevant 3% regen bonus and the extra 2.5% shaved off the tengu defensive sub is bullshit.

just nerf them all to 7.5%.

I just ran some numbers on it, roughly you will gain an extra 1.5 - 2 hp/s raw regen. In other words very hard to quantify. Doesn't this actually make tengu fleets with logi better since they're slightly less reliant on reps now? Now you can fit your tengu with halo implants to drop the bloom a little? 15% regen extra on some setups is like an extra 60 ehp/s? Yeah not quite rattlesnake levels of passive regen but for something with a sig of maybe 230 that's pretty respectable.

LAlpha

BLACK STUMP AU INC

Likes received: 15

#93 - 2015-02-27 01:31:33 UTC

T3s have a Skill loss upon the loss of ship which is extremely painful to a player.
Approximately 4 Days worth of training at LV5 with +4 implants.
No other ship in this game has this penalty.
As such T3s should have stats like no other ship.

If CCP intends to balance T3s by comparing its stats against all other ships then this Skill Loss must be removed.
If not then the comparison is not a fair analysis.

4Rum Alt

Republic Military School

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 3

#94 - 2015-02-27 01:38:37 UTC

Dear CCP,

I do not know why you let some of the players whom have no understanding of what a tech 3 ship is made you nerf them. Tech 3 ships are not overpowered and never have been. T3 ships were just before their time and all the other ships were underpowered. You have buffed all the other ships so t3's don't seem overpowered anymore. Then some many many players fail to see what a t3's ships is, so I will in the simplest why I can think of try to once again explain it.

A t3's ship is basically a hybrid cruiser devised from the top T2 cruisers of the 4 empires and from sleeper technology which is far more advanced then the 4 empires technology. Now if you take the strengths of the 4 empires t2 ships and you add the strengths of sleeper ships, which are their tanks and dps, would they not be far superior to T2 ships? so why then do many of you expect t2 ships to be better than t3 ships? CCP has already made it to where no T3 can our perform the specific roles of the various t2 ships, as in a Loki can not be fit to have longer web range than a Rapier, a Proteus can not be fit to have longer point range than a Arazu, ect.....

Ok going a little further, I'm sure all of you remember the movie Independence Day. Do you remember the alien ship that the Americans had, now take the top Fighter jet the Americans have and add just the shield technology(tank), the anti-gravity(speed) and weapons(dps) from the alien ship to the fighter jet. Now wouldn't that fighter jet be far superior? That my fellow Eve players is what a tech 3 ship is. I beg you CCP not to nerf the tech 3's tanks as it is what makes a t3 ship a tech 3 ship.............

Rowells

Blackwater USA Inc.

Pandemic Horde

Likes received: 3,190

#95 - 2015-02-27 02:13:07 UTC

unimatrix0030 wrote:

Rowells wrote:

Iirc proteus can pull 320k and legion can do 270k with only T2 mods. I believe the highest non-belonged set up I've seen on tengu reached 170 maybe.

it is laughably easy to get over 100k with with any T3 and still fit for weapons. Tengus are already in use above 100 with full racks of rails, proteus doesnt even need a plate to breach 100 and legion can do it with 3 modules. Rigs + Augment/screening subs are very powerful.

Rowells

Blackwater USA Inc.

Pandemic Horde

Likes received: 3,190

#96 - 2015-02-27 02:21:48 UTC

Alundil wrote:

ok ive made it home and opened pyfa and i can now see my memory was wrong. I have a tengu at 299k ehp here. So my number of 100k was definitely wrong.

The Graduates 2,921
FT Diomedes The Graduates Likes received: 2,921	#97 - 2015-02-27 03:00:35 UTC TrouserDeagle wrote: TheMercenaryKing wrote: now if only the prop mod bonus affected only 10mn classes. a more sensible way to fix this would be to just completely prevent people from fitting oversized or undersized prop mods Agreed. CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

FT Diomedes

The Graduates

Likes received: 2,921

#98 - 2015-02-27 03:19:12 UTC

Rowells wrote:

Could we possibly consider giving the Loki a shield boosting bonus for one of its subs? One of the lesser used subs getting a halfway decent bonus or replacing the bonus for a very good boosts to shield boosters.

Seems odd that the cal dark have active bonus considering the pattern of most Calderon ships is in resists or shield amount.

I'd totally support this change.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.


FT Diomedes The Graduates Likes received: 2,921	#99 - 2015-02-27 03:22:20 UTC I don't think the EHP has been brought down quite enough yet. I would leave the resistances alone, but bring down the raw HP bonuses to 5% per level. CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Lazerhawks L A Z E R H A W K S 40
Saavik Ambraelle Lazerhawks L A Z E R H A W K S Likes received: 40	#100 - 2015-02-27 05:11:45 UTC 1 Zomgnomnom wrote: Make Battleships WORTH flying....... Waiting since.... what 2012? They'll never be much use in wormholes because of mass and the every present threat of being dread blapped. Intoxication is the most effective of warp scramblers.