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Blitzing L3s
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Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#1 - 2015-02-26 00:42:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Ion Kirst
A minor controversy started when I dared to challenge the “King of L3s”, the Mach. (you can find the other post on 2nd page)

The Mach has been touted as being the King, because it was claimed and previously proven, to complete L3 missions faster than anything out there.

I knew my Ferox did L3s pretty easily, and I thought how could a slow lumbering BS really be faster. I did not know that the Mach can fly like frigates.

I tried to match mission times, which didn’t go over very well with some people. I was told that the Mach will complete the mission before I even get there. Well, that comparison was to my brick Ferox to the Mach with warp speed rigs. It’s like comparing apples to oranges. What I was required to do was to match over all times, whether they were in the same system, or a jump away.

Putting warp speed rigs on the Ferox helped a lot, and it could beat Stoic’s Mach in some mission times. Overall it was a losing battle. I needed another challenger.

The premise of the Mach in L3s, is that it can earn up to 90+M per hour, because it is so fast and powerful. So I felt that I had to beat, match, or come close to the Stoic’s times, then I too could also make up to 90+M per hour.

I offer to you a very capable challenger, the Tengu. OMG, a Tengu with rails?

As I mentioned in a previous post, I felt the Mach was overpowered for L3s. It always seemed like a joke for people to use a BS for L3s, but the Mach was King. It does well because of it buffed speed. With grouped 1400's it handles targets very quickly with large volleys. It had better take care of things with one volley because that 16 sec cycle time could seem like an eternity.

So, I’ve run quite a few missions with the Tengu, and it does very very well in L3s. My only goal, is to beat Stoic’s times. I know other people could even do some of these a few seconds faster. The Mach, even with all sorts of rigs and implants, could hit 10+AU/sec. The Tengu has a base warp speed of 4.5, and with the same rigs and implants could hit 13+AU/sec. So that’s the rub, use whatever is available to you, no matter the cost. The Tengu can go faster, but can it's quicker speed make up for a few seconds lost in the actual mission time?

Results will follow.

It’s not that fab, but here is the fit:

Tengu (L3 Blitzing, basic set-up)

*Edit - fit has been redone:

rigs:
3 x Hyperspatial velocity optimizer II

highs:
6 x 250mm T2 rails. (Caldari antimatter, only 693 dps, Optimal range inside 50km, fall off within 79km. )

mids:
Pith C-type MSB
10mn MWD II
3 x Tracking computers II ( range or tracking script)
Sensor BoosterII

Low:
4 x Federation MFS


My Tengu hits 8.6AU/sec! (In EFT it shows 9.3, I don’t know where the discrepancy is.)


-Kirst

Mission results to follow.

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#2 - 2015-02-26 00:45:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Ion Kirst
OK, here are some results in running 13 L3 missions comparing my Tengu to Stoic’s Mach.


Edit: All these missions have been redone!. They were all timed in the same way as Stoic timed his.

Success Comes at a Price - one jump away- redone

Stoic:
travel time - 2m31
mission time - 31s
total time - 3m02s

Tengu:
travel time - 2m29s
mission time - 36s
total time - 3m 05s

The Guristas Spies - in system - redone

Stoic:
travel time - 1m20s
mission time - 54s
total time - 2m14s

Tengu:
travel time - 1m09s
mission time - 54s
total time - 2m03s

Smuggler Interception - in system - redone

Stoic:
travel time - 1m28s
mission time - 4m10s
total time - 5m38s

Tengu:
Travel time - 1m12s
mission time - 4m27s
total time - 5m39s
-for the blitz, I only had to destroy the BC and spawn 1, after destroying the transports in pocket 2, but I destroyed all 3 spawns. I"ll try again next time to do it right.

Gone Berserk -in system - redone

Stoic:
travel time - 1m18s
mission time - 1m53s
total time - 3m11s

Tengu:
travel time - 1m12s
mission time - 1m56s
total time - 3m08s

Eliminate the Pirate Campers - in system - (redone)

Stoic:
travel time - 1m30s
mission time - 1m41s
total time - 3m11s

Tengu:
travel time - 1m11s
mission time - 1m35s
total time - 2m46s

Rogue Drone Harassment - in system - (redone)

Stoic:
travel time - 1m33s
mission time - 2m57s
total time - 4m30s

Tengu:
travel time - 1m15s
mission time - 3m29s
total time - 4m44s

Damsel in Distress - in system - (redone)

Stoic:
travel time - 1m29s
mission time - 20s
total time - 1m49s

Tengu:
travel time - 1m14s
mission time - 14s
total time - 1m28s

Break Their Will - one jump away - (redone)

Stoic:
travel time - 2m42s
mission time - 45s
total time - 3m27s

Tengu:
travel time - 2m30s
mission time - 53s
total time - 3m23s

Break Their Will - in system - redone

Stoic:
travel time - 1m24s
mission time - 42s
total time - 2m06s

Tengu:
travel time - 1m09s
mission time - 54s
total time - 2m03s

Stop The Thief - one jump away - redone

Stoic:
travel - 2m29s
mission - 18s
total - 2m47s

Tengu:
travel - 2m32s
mission - 28s
total 3m00s
-thief went down in one volley, should have burned to him, and then fired, saving a few secs. (will try again)

Retribution - in system - (redone)

Stoic:
travel - 1m22s
mission - 1m20s
total 2m42s

Tengu:
travel - 1m24s
mission - 35s
total - 1m 59s


Downing the Slavers - in system - redone

Stoic:
travel - 1m25s
mission - 1m31s
total - 2m56s

Tengu:
travel - 1m13s
mission - 1m44s
total - 2m57s

Rogue Slave Trader - in system - redone

Stoic:
travel - 1m22s
mission - 1m24s
total - 2m46s

Tengu:
travel - 1m16s
mission - 39s
total - 1m55s

The Space Telescope - in system - (redone)

Stoic:
travel - 1m22s
mission - 1m40s
total - 3m 02s

Tengu:
travel - 1m10s
mission - 1m26s
total - 2m36s

Seven’s Prison Facility - in system - redone

Stoic:
travel - 1m18s
mission - 24s
total - 1m42s

Tengu:
travel - 1m06s
mission - 37s
total - 1m43s

Duo of Death - one jump - (redone)

Stoic:
travel - 1m33s
mission - 1m08s
total - 2m41s

Tengu:
travel - 1m09s
mission - 1m01s
total - 2m10s

The Good Word - in system - redone

Stoic:
travel - 1m26s
mission - 2m54s
total - 4m20s

Tengu:
travel - 1m29s
mission - 2m15s
total - 3m44s
-got hung up warping out.

Silence the Informant - one jump away

Stoic:
travel - 1m42s
mission - 4m18s
total 6m00s

Tengu:
travel - 1m13s
mission - 5m17s
total - 6m33s
- disclaimer on this one. This was one of the first ones I ran. I changed ammo 3 times, and got webbed for 10sec, so my time could have been about 25sec faster. I added a 3rd computer after this one for range.

OK. There’s that so far. As you can see, the Tengu can do very well in L3s. I, or you, should be able to make 90+M /hr with this Tengu, as Stoic did in his Mach. It is very difficult to keep that type of intensity up for any length of time.

-Kirst

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#3 - 2015-02-26 04:28:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Donnachadh
Got no idea how it would turn out and to be honest I have no desire to try but I wonder how an Ishtar would fare in this?

And wondering what subs you used or did I miss those in your post?
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2015-02-26 18:23:17 UTC
Could try a rail proteus with warp speed sub and rigs as well maybe

Art of Explosions
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#5 - 2015-02-26 19:01:47 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Could try a rail proteus with warp speed sub and rigs as well maybe



I did look at all the T3 Cruisers. (and already had the Tengu)

Unless my memory is fading, and that's a strong possibility, I think the Tengu, is the only one that has a subsystem that gives a 4.5AU/s warp speed. I can't check now, I am at work.

Thanks

-Kirst

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
Kiddoomer
The Red Sequence
#6 - 2015-02-26 19:19:18 UTC
I know that my Cerberus with RLML is way too slow to compare with Machariel or T3, but I was thinking that after I finished my Heavy assault missile skill to V i could try with polarized launchers with a pure active tank ? Since the targets are mostly cruisers/BC and frigates in L3, I think it can be pretty good for that.

In the name of Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen : “Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.”
Orlacc
#7 - 2015-02-26 20:05:19 UTC

Proteus Propulsion - Gravitational Capacitor

Bonus:
15% bonus to warp speed per level
15% reduction in capacitor need when initiating warp per lev

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#8 - 2015-02-26 21:00:55 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Could try a rail proteus with warp speed sub and rigs as well maybe



I was wrong. A Proteus with a Gravitational Capacitor has a base warp speed of 4.9 AU/s.

I failed, because I fitted it with artillery. What was I thinking?

Looking at EFT, it has good range, targets in 2.8s, aligns in 4.5s, it can do more dmg that Tengu, warp speed of 8.5AU/s, etc.


The Proteus looks like it would do very very good too. Good catch.



-Kirst

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2015-02-26 21:05:59 UTC
think sentry proteus with warpspeed rigs+sub would probably be the best. 8.5 au/sec warp speed and 600 dps out to 65km+

Art of Explosions
Ambusher Ituin
Roughneck Raiders
#10 - 2015-02-26 21:32:37 UTC
Nice experiment! I've been fiddling with my Tengu in L3 missions, trying to extrapolate whether I could get anywhere near Stoic's results. I've been too lazy to take the Tengu to the area where several L3 agents hang out.

And now, just when you convinced me the Tengu could come close, it looks like the Proteus (for which I am not trained) is an even better answer.

+1 to you and Tsukino

Don't panic now … there'll be plenty of time to do that later.
Paranoid Loyd
#11 - 2015-02-26 21:45:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
think sentry proteus with warpspeed rigs+sub would probably be the best. 8.5 au/sec warp speed and 600 dps out to 65km+

This does look like a strong contender, one of the issues I see is the delay for drones to engage might make it slower. The delay is usually negligible, but when we are talking about trying to beat a time by seconds it can make a difference. Efficiency will also be lost as you can't use sentries to shoot while moving to the gate on multi-pocket missions.

Krist, I don't remember if you mentioned it but did you find any gained efficiency by splitting the guns on the Tengu? A lot of damage will be wasted on frigs if you are not splitting the drones into groups. Managing grouped drones is a lot more cumbersome than grouped rails.

Rail Proteus looks very similar to what Krist is using if you have two tracking comps and use Thorium instead of Anti matter it will have 40 more DPS and slightly better projection. It can carry drones so some efficiency may be gained in missions with lots of stuff to shoot.

[Proteus, LVL3 Blitz]
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II
Medium Armor Repairer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Scan Resolution Script

250mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Thorium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Thorium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Thorium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Thorium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Thorium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Thorium Charge M

Medium Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Medium Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Medium Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II

Proteus Propulsion - Gravitational Capacitor
Proteus Defensive - Nanobot Injector
Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Proteus Electronics - CPU Efficiency Gate
Proteus Offensive - Hybrid Propulsion Armature

Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5

Trading Hybrid Propulsion Armature for Dissonic Encoding Platform loses the drones and gains 7.5% tracking bonus for hybrids, not sure which is better, depends on the mission I guess.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#12 - 2015-02-26 22:32:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Ion Kirst
Ambusher Ituin wrote:
Nice experiment! I've been fiddling with my Tengu in L3 missions, trying to extrapolate whether I could get anywhere near Stoic's results. I've been too lazy to take the Tengu to the area where several L3 agents hang out.

And now, just when you convinced me the Tengu could come close, it looks like the Proteus (for which I am not trained) is an even better answer.

+1 to you and Tsukino


Thanks.

I dabbled in EFT with the Proteus. I think I'm going to run out and get one!

That thing is as fast as the Tengu, but it can put out over 700dps! (With my implants). With the Tengu I was struggling with about 577dps. EDIT: but that was with 5 turrets! With a different sub-system, it can have 6 turrets too, and the dps jumps to 693.

There is a point though where it may just come down to who can move their fingers the fastest. that ol' hand to eye co-ordination.

For blitzing these L3s as fast as possible, one slip can cause you to miss a frigate that could web you, or get inside your guns. Then the blitz is off. Also, at that fast pace, which is hard to keep up, popping out the drones may take too much precious time.

Do it people! Get your stop watches out. Lets see what kind of numbers you can generate!

-Kirst

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#13 - 2015-02-27 00:17:26 UTC
So after you and Stoic and all who follow start down this road, have you given thought to how the maths are affected by the reporting?

In other words, " If everyone ran missions just like me, what kind of payout would there be?"

Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#14 - 2015-02-27 10:24:31 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
think sentry proteus with warpspeed rigs+sub would probably be the best. 8.5 au/sec warp speed and 600 dps out to 65km+



Another thanks to you.

I am so dumb. I went back looking at the T3 cruisers, and their sub systems. The Tengu can have 6 turrets! (slaps self on forehead).

For me that translates to about 690dps. (The volley goes up too, and that helps.) However, I lose a low slot, an Inertial Stab, slowing align time. The capacitor also takes a hit, which could make things interesting. I may not need the Proteus, but it does look good too.

I'm continuing to run L3s, and see if this affects over all time. I won't post any more blitz times, unless there is something that really stands out.
_____

Do I really profess everyone to Blitz L3s as fast as they can? No. Just offering a little diversion if they're in a rut. Be careful, speed can be addictive.

-Kirst

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
Leiron Thali
#15 - 2015-02-27 15:36:50 UTC
I've never heard of people farming level 3 missions until now. Where does the money you make from them come from? Obviously not from loot or salvage. So I suppose just from isk rewards and LP
stoicfaux
#16 - 2015-02-27 15:37:22 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
The viability of a rail cruiser platform in level 3s is interesting and looks quite viable.

However, some nitpicks:
* rail tengu doesn't have drones, so if you get webbed and scram'd (which can happen in level 3s,) you might be in trouble unless you brought a mobile depot to refit to blasters. (However, the proteus can have drones.)

* Rails are limited in damage type.

* Medium rails are getting nerfed.

* Fast warp speeds are great, but if you look at the chart from the warp speed dev blog, how much travel time are you really saving going from 5 to 8 AU/s? I would be concerned about focusing too much on warp speed to the detriment of damage projection and application.

* From a previous related thread, Mr Kirst sounded as if he was measuring mission time oddly. My "mission time" numbers start after you arrive out of warp (i.e. you can target something, move, etc.) and ends when you press "warp to" to exit the mission area.

* Carrying a lot of bling (faction DPS mods in lows) coupled with a PvE T3's relatively limited EHP, could invite a gank.

edit: * also damage projection. IIRC some of the level 3 NPCs spawn at 100km.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#17 - 2015-02-27 16:59:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ion Kirst
Stoic, let me first say the records you kept on running those L3s are awesome. That was no simple task.



Yes, without drones, timed blitzes can be futile. It has happened, so since then, those webbing frigates are taken out first.

The damage type for rails works just fine in these missions.

Stoic, I believe I was keeping time the same as you. I will try to tell you mine. I strive to time each part of the mission, the same way for every mission.

If the mission is in system, with no accel gate, I hit the timer, and then warp into the mission, recording that time, from the station, when I drop out of warp. Once in the mission, I time from there to warp out time. and then the time back to station.

The Tengu at warp 8.6 gets anywhere very fast. (I believe it aligns quicker, jumps into warp faster, and doesn't need as much deceleration as compared to the Mach.)

If the mission is in system, and has an accel gate - I time from station to accel gate, when when "warp indicator goes to zero" and then accel gate into mission, record mission time at warp out, and then time from mission back to station . IE: in one mission, it may take 24s to warp to accel gate, 12 sec to warp into mission, time in mission, and then 24s back to station. Again marking the times when I drop out of warp.

If the mission is in another system - I start the timer, warp to gate, go thru gate, and record the time when the ship is seen, As soon as the ship is seen, you can warp into the mission, or it's accel. gate. Record the time in mission, and time from warp out, back thru gate, and then back to station.

I believe we are timing things the same.


"some of the L3 NPCs spawn at 100km" -
that is true. I just did that mission. I will post the time when I get home later. I don't remember the it's name at the moment, but to complete the mission the requirement for blitzing was to eliminate the 2nd group. That group consisted of 3 frigates and 1 BC. They were 110km out. I hit the timer, then burned toward the BC, targeted all 4, and started firing at the BC. He really didn't start taking damage untill I got to about 80km. (really didn't pay attention). Once he was gone, I quickly took care of the frigates.

That's the only one I had a bit of trouble with with the NPC being that far out.

I wouldn't use the warp speed charts. I'd rather use the actual numbers.

I will make timing runs, for different distances, as I did before, noting the time to align, the time to max warp, the time in warp, and the time for deceleration, untill droping out of warp. if you so desire.

I've already noticed a little quicker time in the missions since I changed the set-up to 6 rails. The travel time is practically the same.

I would be great if a few other people would run a few missions in this way. I'm believing that you'll see some identical numbers.

-Kirst

Ask any questions you wish, I will answer them as completely and honestly as I can. (You can't make this stuff up!)

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
stoicfaux
#18 - 2015-02-27 17:12:14 UTC
Ion Kirst wrote:
Stoic, I believe I was keeping time the same as you. I will try to tell you mine. I strive to time each part of the mission, the same way for every mission.

If the mission is in system, with no accel gate, I hit the timer, and then warp into the mission, recording that time, from the station, when I drop out of warp. Once in the mission, I time from there to warp out time. and then the time back to station.

If the mission is in system, and has an accel gate - I time from station to accel gate, when when "warp indicator goes to zero" and then accel gate into mission, record mission time at warp out, and then time from mission back to station . IE: in one mission, it may take 24s to warp to accel gate, 12 sec to warp into mission, time in mission, and then 24s back to station. Again marking the times when I drop out of warp.

If the mission is in another system - I start the timer, warp to gate, go thru gate, and record the time when the ship is seen, As soon as the ship is seen, you can warp into the mission, or it's accel. gate. Record the time in mission, and time from warp out, back thru gate, and then back to station.

I believe we are timing things the same.

And now I'm confused. I track time thusly:
1. Start travel timer when you hit undock button (damn you 10 second undock delay!)
2. Stop travel timer when you warp into mission area and have full control over your ship. (Regardless of how many jumps away the mission is.) Start mission timer.
3. Shoot NPCs, go through acceleration gates, pick up mission objectives, etc., all counts as mission time.
4. Click warp to... to begin warping out of the mission to start heading home. Stop mission timer, start travel timer.
5. Stop travel timer when I click the mission complete button on the agent window. (There's a mission or two you can complete remotely, but I still count the time it takes to get back to the station and talk to the agent.)


Quote:
I wouldn't use the warp speed charts. I'd rather use the actual numbers.

You can use the numbers to get a rough idea of how much time you'll save with higher warp speeds.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#19 - 2015-02-27 21:33:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Ion Kirst
Stoic,

OK, I wasn't keeping the same time as you. Thanks for correcting me.

So let me make sure. The time is from clicking on "undock", to clicking on "Complete Mission" in station?

I was avoiding that undock and docking thing. I was just timeing from outside of station to outside of station.

I've made some test runs, and it looks like I should add about 20sec, to my travel time if the mission is in the same system. If the mission is one jump away, I should add about 40sec. (numbers just came out that way).

Doing it that way you've added a lot of the human factor. I realize that even "my" way there is still a lot of finger movement. You've also could have added in any delay in EVE itself, that could occur. (waiting to get towed) You've also added in the speed of my computer as compared to yours. There are too many variables coming into play. I like mine better, it's more ship against ship. Not, me, my ship, my computer, and EVE, against you, your ship, your computer, and EVE.

But I will do it, your way now.

I can adjust some of my mission times that I have posted. Or as the missions get offered, I will redo them completely. I will also put in an explaination in the post saying I made a mistake on the times, and put in the new ones. (Geez, this may take a few days.)

This may not be so bad. If I add in those times into mine. I still do very good, and lose some by not that much. Win some, lose some.

If I redo the missions, with a 6 turret Tengu, than my 5 turret Tengu, I'm sure my mission time might be a few seconds faster (depends). I will find out.

-Kirst

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#20 - 2015-02-27 22:07:26 UTC
Just for an example I ran "Driving a Wedge, Kill the Gallente" part I

I had done it before with the "old" Tengu: (the way I timed travel time before)

travel time - 59s
mission time - 32s
total - 1m 31s

"New" Tengu: (the way I time travel now)

travel time - 1m 20s (+21sec)
mission time - 25s (-7sec)
total - 1m 45s

So, what the other missions may show is that my travel time will increase, but my time in mission should decrease.

Looking forward to the new numbers.


-Kirst

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
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